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April 16 2017 @ 10:39 pm
The White Princess: 101 In Bed with the Enemy  
In Bed with the Enemy starts with the York's at their home waiting for the arrival of the victor of the battle between Richard III and Henry Tudor (Henry VII). Elizabeth is in love with Richard (he is her uncle ewww) but betrothed to Henry. As it turns out that is Henry and not Richard. As Henry's soldiers approach Elizabeth Woodville sends her son Richard away. The problem is she has know way of knowing where Richard York is if he hasn't arrived at his destination and later Elizabeth discovers Margaret has ordered all boys found there are to be executed. But thankfully the purveying belief is that the Princes (Edward and Richard) died in the Tower at Richard III's orders.

Let's call Elizabeth of York (the daughter) Lizzie just to make things easier to keep straight. Lizzie and her family are packed away in rooms (not the Queen's rooms as it turns out) and Henry isn't so keen to marry her knowing she was unchaste with Richard III. However, when it becomes increasingly apparent that Henry's rule relies upon his marriage to Lizzie, he decides it is best to find out whether she is fertile or not beforehand.

Lizzie soon falls pregnant and considers ridding herself of the baby so she doesn't have to marry Henry but after Elizabeth tells her this baby is also half York, Lizzie goes to tell Henry of the baby. Both Henry and Margaret are overjoyed and plan the wedding so that the baby (to be named Arthur) will not be a bastard.

Discuss:

  1. What did you think of Lizzie and Jodie Comer's (of Thirteen) portrayal of her?

  2. I know it was fairly common for people to marry blood relations back then but Lizzie and Richard III her uncle?

  3. What did you think of Cecily's actions and Henry's reference to her loyalty?

  4. While the scene with Lizzie and Henry having sex is supposed to be betrayed as consensual, did it feel more like a rape to you?

  5. What did you think of Elizabeth's curse that the Tudor sons would die and how in history this is true?

  6. How did you feel about the motto given to Lizzie and the motto she took.

  7. Do you believe Richard York got away?

  8. Do you believe Margaret really wishes to be Lizzie's friend?

In history...

  1. there is no real proof that Lizzie was in love with Richard III, her uncle.

  2. Richard and Edward, the Princes in the Tower, were in line for the throne which Richard III was supposed to look after them. They were lodged in the Tower and disappeared. Edward was supposed to be crowned King but Richard III took the throne and named himself king. It is believed Richard III had them killed but there is no proof to what happened to the princes.

Next Week:


 
 
 
siobhan63siobhan63 on April 17th, 2017 11:07 am (UTC)
I was hoping to take part in this discussion but, so far, can't find a torrent for this anywhere. So unless someone starts uploading it to Pirate Bay or somewhere, I'm stuck.
M: queen elizabeth :: the white queenella_rose88 on April 17th, 2017 12:31 pm (UTC)
I have a streaming link where I watched it. I pm it to you :)

Edited at 2017-04-17 12:34 pm (UTC)
M: elizabeth :: the white queenella_rose88 on April 18th, 2017 02:32 am (UTC)
What did you think of Lizzie and Jodie Comer's (of Thirteen) portrayal of her?

I was actually surprised that I ended up liking Jodie's portrayal of Lizzie, seeing as it was played by another actress in The White Queen. I think Jodie did a great job showing Lizzie's frustration in having to marry someone she doesn't love/respect.

I know it was fairly common for people to marry blood relations back then but Lizzie and Richard III her uncle?

I don't believe that Lizzie was in love with her uncle Richard. It's a rumor and one that people who hated the Woodviles started most likely. Maybe Lizzie kept Richard in her good books because of their situation and Richard declaring himself King over her brother/s, but I find it unlikely that she would develop feelings for someone that went against her father's wishes and made himself king over her brothers who end up going missing/dying, especially when he is considered the one that had them killed. I find it so unlikely. Plus its wrong too. Like it's her father's brother. Yuck!

What did you think of Cecily's actions and Henry's reference to her loyalty?

LOL at first I thought you meant Cecily as in Edward, George and Richard's mother, not Cecily as in Lizzie's sister. Well, I think for any king but especially Henry who won the crown on the battlefield, loyalty is really important. We see Jasper mention that they were a lot of people who swore to fight for him, only for them to betray him. In terms of Cecily's actions, in the book Cecily is jealous of her sister, and in this episode we saw how Henry wanted Cecily to dance for him. She felt that she was preferred over her sister and saw an opportunity and took it. It, however, backfired on her.

While the scene with Lizzie and Henry having sex is supposed to be betrayed as consensual, did it feel more like a rape to you?

This is tough, because within these days standards it would definitely be rape (and it was even though Lizzie kind of consented begrudgingly), but back then not necessarily because men acted like they were entitled and had more control. Women like Lizzie married for status or because they were told to.

What did you think of Elizabeth's curse that the Tudor sons would die and how in history this is true?

It was scary and filmed well. I don't believe that Elizabeth was a witch, but she could have cursed them. At the end of the day, history is what it is. I don;t think Elizabeth's curse has any bearing on what happened with the Tudor Dynasty.

How did you feel about the motto given to Lizzie and the motto she took?

I liked it. It was totally BAMF!

Do you believe Richard York got away?

No, I don't believe so. I guess I could see that Elizabeth may have switched her son for someone else knowing what happened with her eldest son, but whether he survived I'm not totally convinced that he did.

Do you believe Margaret really wishes to be Lizzie's friend?

I think in Margaret's mind, yes she wants to be friends, but in everyone else's definition probably not. Margaret tends to put her expectations of how people should be on others. This doesn't exactly endear her to people much.
Jill aka Jo: OUaT: Charmingsireesanwar on April 18th, 2017 09:48 pm (UTC)
1. I tend to agree that Jodie did a fantastic job. She looks so different from her character in Thirteen but I really enjoyed her portrayal of Lizzie.

2. It is true. In history, the likelihood of a romantic relationship is almost nil. It would not have been looked on favorably for an Uncle and Niece to have such a relationship. Gregory's book suggests it is true and the shows producers went with it. But the mere idea is gross.

3. Great point. I think Cecily misconstrued Henry's attempts to make Lizzie angry as interest. But I do love he points out her needing to be loyal to her sister and putting her in her place. Cecily frustrated me in the book too.

4. It is true. I so think back then none of it would have been rape but Lizzie even accuses him of being willing to rape her. I really liked the scene because Lizzie knew she would have to be with him anyway. The contrast of this interaction and Henry "protecting her virtue" in the end was interesting. However, I don't think Henry was protecting her so much as himself and their child.

5. First, I don't think Elizabeth was a witch. It is more likely she had knowledge of herbs much like Claire in Outlander. She understands something others don't and so she's seen as having some kind of mystical knowledge. However, in this adaptation of history they are clearly portraying her as having "witch" tendencies. And for the stories sake I think she does have some hand in the downfall of the Tudor line, but only in this story. In history it was more than likely just the lack of modern medicine and Henry VIII's great likelihood of having an STD.

6. I think so too. I love that Lizzie is this silent foe inside of this family.

7. If feel in this adaptation he will survive but in history no.

8. I really don't like Margaret because she believes it is God who wills her son to be King and her to have the power she does but she's masking her ambitions for God's will. I have always felt Margaret saw the only way she would rule was to get her son on the throne.
Jo Ann: Out: Sam-Cait cold hugyeuxdebleu on April 19th, 2017 01:19 am (UTC)
I have cancelled Starz until Outlander is back. Then wheb I re-subscribe, I'll watch this at the Starz on-line web site.
Jill aka Josireesanwar on April 24th, 2017 05:29 am (UTC)
I did too but I decided to resubscribe so I could watch this and Black Sails.