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June 18 2017 @ 11:55 am
TWP 107: Old Curses  
Old Curses
A final confrontation with the pretender exposes King Henry's weaknesses, while Lizzie confronts new demons and old curses.

I have to go into this saying Wow. I can't believe this show ended the way it did and knowing the books it seems unfinished which leads me to believe there will be a second season or if they will continue with the books and do The Constant Princess which is about Katherine of Aragon. I'm honestly terrified by Lizzie.

Topics:

  1. Do you think Lizzie's nightmare reveals her true loyalties? When do you think Lizzie's loyalties switched from York to Tudor?

  2. Henry confronts his mother about the death of the York boys in the tower and upon her confession lashes out and her. Did you think this justified? Do you think it was about her criminally or just because of the supposed curse? What did you think of Henry stripping his mother of power?

  3. What are your thoughts on Henry's new assertion that he is not the rightful King?

  4. Henry tells Lizzie he loves her but that he isn't the rightful king and sends her to see her "brother." Do you think this is what prompts Lizzie in her plans to see "Richard" dead?

  5. Did you believe "Richard" when he tells Lizzie he doesn't plan to kill her husband or harm her family?

  6. Lizzie confronts Margaret about the things she's done but Margaret makes the comment that if Lizzie is not stunned by the horrible things she would do for her children then she is not a woman worthy of the name. Do you think this influenced Lizzie or is Margaret wrong?

  7. We see young Harry listening to his mother tell Arthur he will never be taken to the Tower. What do you think the show is trying to convey to us?

  8. What did you think of Maggie telling the Spanish about Lizzie's deception in killing "Richard?"

  9. What did you think about Lizzie entrapping Teddy and then having him beheaded? What did you think of "Richard" trying to make the ordeal easier on Teddy?

  10. Who do you think Lizzie is speaking to when "Richard" is beheaded and she asks, "Why did you leave me no choice?" Is it "Richard" or her mother?

Elizabeth York is portrayed in history as quiet and almost innocent and I don't remember the book portraying her much differently. I may be wrong but it always seemed to be that she was just at the mercy of Henry, his mother and her own mother.

This would be a definite departure from that because the show portrays Lizzie as the instrument of Henry's rule. Margaret got him on the throne but Lizzie kept him there? I feel that the complaint against royals or the rich about what they think they can get away with is a very old one indeed.

How would you rate this season of The White Princess?

Mean: 2.67 Median: 2 Std. Dev 1.25
1
1(33.3%)
2
0(0.0%)
3
1(33.3%)
4
1(33.3%)
5
0(0.0%)

1=Awful and 5=Spectacular


 
 
 
M: Lizzie :: The White Princessella_rose88 on June 28th, 2017 12:37 pm (UTC)
My thoughts - Part One
Do you think Lizzie's nightmare reveals her true loyalties? When do you think Lizzie's loyalties switched from York to Tudor?

I think her nightmares made her realise what she could lose. I think once Arthur was born and she got to know Henry more her feelings changed and she became a Tudor. Though, she is conflicted between the two houses and has to deal with pressure from both sides.

Henry confronts his mother about the death of the York boys in the tower and upon her confession lashes out and her. Did you think this justified? Do you think it was about her criminally or just because of the supposed curse? What did you think of Henry stripping his mother of power?

I felt it was karma after she killed Jasper (if we forget historical facts), and it was both because she had a hand in the princes dying and the supposed curse. His mother deserved it to be honest. She's so self-righteous and deserves the consequences.

What are your thoughts on Henry's new assertion that he is not the rightful King?

I think for Henry a huge part of his belief that he was the rightful king was because of his mother. Once, he found out what she did, it weakened his belief that his purpose is to be King when his mother had the princes murdered.

Henry tells Lizzie he loves her but that he isn't the rightful king and sends her to see her "brother." Do you think this is what prompts Lizzie in her plans to see "Richard" dead?

Maybe. Or it might be because her "brother" didn't take the opportunity to flee with his wife when he had the chance. She then had the nightmare and has seen her "brother's" determination to be King and overthrow Henry that she does it. I don't think she wants to do it but she feels she needs to in order to save her family and secure Arthur's betrothal to Catherine of Aargon.

Did you believe "Richard" when he tells Lizzie he doesn't plan to kill her husband or harm her family?

No I don't actually. There would be people who support Henry and he'd still be a threat. Her children might be safe, but maybe not the boys because supporters might back them if something happened to Henry.

Edited at 2017-06-28 12:38 pm (UTC)
Jill aka Jo: GOT: Sansa and Margaerysireesanwar on June 30th, 2017 07:04 pm (UTC)
Re: My thoughts - Part One
I think her nightmares made her realise what she could lose. I think once Arthur was born and she got to know Henry more her feelings changed and she became a Tudor. Though, she is conflicted between the two houses and has to deal with pressure from both sides.

I think you are right. I think Lizzie started feeling more loyal to Henry and the Tudor line as soon as it became her family through Arthur. I feel like it made her see her mother's worries a little bit but she just because the mother who wanted her children to survive.

I felt it was karma after she killed Jasper (if we forget historical facts), and it was both because she had a hand in the princes dying and the supposed curse. His mother deserved it to be honest. She's so self-righteous and deserves the consequences.

Totally. I couldn't stand Margaret at all. And Henry's anger was so justified not only because of her actions and the curse but I think Henry realized Margaret did it all to steal the throne for him.

I think for Henry a huge part of his belief that he was the rightful king was because of his mother. Once, he found out what she did, it weakened his belief that his purpose is to be King when his mother had the princes murdered.

That is what I think. I mean to learn your mother murdered children so she could obtain a kingship for you. I kind of felt bad for Henry. Terrible parent.


Maybe. Or it might be because her "brother" didn't take the opportunity to flee with his wife when he had the chance. She then had the nightmare and has seen her "brother's" determination to be King and overthrow Henry that she does it. I don't think she wants to do it but she feels she needs to in order to save her family and secure Arthur's betrothal to Catherine of Aargon.

I do think Richard's refusal to flee played a huge roll but I think part of it all was everything kind of broke Lizzie. She tried repeatedly to prevent her brother's death but then she realizes it is the only way to secure the thrown and their lives.

No I don't actually. There would be people who support Henry and he'd still be a threat. Her children might be safe, but maybe not the boys because supporters might back them if something happened to Henry.

Which is the other reason I think Lizzie had him killed. She had enough experience in this royal world to know that Richard saying he wouldn't hurt her family meant nothing.
M: Lizzie :: The White Princessella_rose88 on June 28th, 2017 12:39 pm (UTC)
My thoughts - Part Two
Lizzie confronts Margaret about the things she's done but Margaret makes the comment that if Lizzie is not stunned by the horrible things she would do for her children then she is not a woman worthy of the name. Do you think this influenced Lizzie or is Margaret wrong?

God I hope not. I think it dawned on Lizzie that she had to do things she wouldn't normally do after her plans failed. She tried to help Teddy and her brother, but it didn't matter because of her aunt and co. schemes. But her family was her priority and came before her supposed brother and cousin.

We see young Harry listening to his mother tell Arthur he will never be taken to the Tower. What do you think the show is trying to convey to us?

It's a reference to what happened to her brothers.

What did you think of Maggie telling the Spanish about Lizzie's deception in killing "Richard?"

I was like why Maggie, why? I mean I do know why but I bet if she knew what the outcome was she would have cooperated with Lizzie and Henry in spreading the lie that "Richard" was dead. Maybe Teddy wouldn't have been executed.

What did you think about Lizzie entrapping Teddy and then having him beheaded? What did you think of "Richard" trying to make the ordeal easier on Teddy?

God! That was hard to watch :( I wished she didn't do it. I wish there was another way. But.... it was not to be. "Richard" helping Teddy made me cry!

Who do you think Lizzie is speaking to when "Richard" is beheaded and she asks, "Why did you leave me no choice?" Is it "Richard" or her mother?

Both I think. Her mother made her promise to protect him, but she couldn't keep it because he was a threat to her family.

Overall, there were aspects I liked, but a few plot lines that left me feeling disappointed and annoyed. The most frustrating plot for me was Margaret killing Jasper. Like the acting was great but that so didn't happen. Oh and I hated how Lizzie and Maggie ended up against each other. I just wished it didn't go that way. They were so lovely:)

Lizzie and Henry had great chemistry, but I felt the huge timejumps weren't done well. I wished we got more intimate scenes between them (not just the sex, but them talking, and being domesticated with their children).
Jill aka Jo: Movie: Pascal upsidedownsireesanwar on June 30th, 2017 07:16 pm (UTC)
Re: My thoughts - Part Two
God I hope not. I think it dawned on Lizzie that she had to do things she wouldn't normally do after her plans failed. She tried to help Teddy and her brother, but it didn't matter because of her aunt and co. schemes. But her family was her priority and came before her supposed brother and cousin.

I think Lizzie's attempts to save Richard and Teddy were her floundering a bit. To me it was her trying not to make the decisions Margaret made but in the end she made similar choices because she wanted to secure Arthur's thrown. I see big parallels between Lizzie and Margaret in the end and then we see Lizzie shut down Margaret and put her in her place. I felt like that was the power shift.

It's a reference to what happened to her brothers.

Yes, but part of me wondered if they were trying to convey that Harry is watching all this and absorbing all these things and it play a part in his actions as King.

I was like why Maggie, why? I mean I do know why but I bet if she knew what the outcome was she would have cooperated with Lizzie and Henry in spreading the lie that "Richard" was dead. Maybe Teddy wouldn't have been executed.

Yes! I kept thinking if Maggie just stuck with Lizzie and helped her hide Richard and Teddy in the end maybe Teddy could have been secreted away somewhere and Maggie would have been able to see him. I did respect her decision not to be pushed around anymore but it cost her so dearly.

God! That was hard to watch :( I wished she didn't do it. I wish there was another way. But.... it was not to be. "Richard" helping Teddy made me cry!

I can't remember all the details of the book. I can't remember if he was supposed to be Richard but in the show he struck me as being Richard because he was so regal and so strong. I was crying a lot when Richard was comforting Teddy before his execution. And I immediately started hating Lizzie. I mean I get Teddy is a political threat but he was also clearly mentally challenged and not really capable of being a king. They could have faked his death and hidden him somewhere.

Both I think. Her mother made her promise to protect him, but she couldn't keep it because he was a threat to her family.

Overall, there were aspects I liked, but a few plot lines that left me feeling disappointed and annoyed. The most frustrating plot for me was Margaret killing Jasper. Like the acting was great but that so didn't happen. Oh and I hated how Lizzie and Maggie ended up against each other. I just wished it didn't go that way. They were so lovely:)

Lizzie and Henry had great chemistry, but I felt the huge timejumps weren't done well. I wished we got more intimate scenes between them (not just the sex, but them talking, and being domesticated with their children).


I do think it was somewhat about Richard but I think the majority of it was for Elizabeth her mother. Her mom set all this into motion and if she'd just left things alone and let Lizzie and her children rule then it might not have come to this.

The whole Margaret killing Jasper thing made me angry more because of this supposed love she had for him and then how desperate she was for God's forgiveness. She justified things and in the end God would have smacked her down. She wasn't really sorry. If she's been she would have told Henry the truth.

I loved when Maggie and Lizzie were cohorts so I was very sad so see that fly out the window.

I so agree. Lizzie and Henry were kind of magical but them jumping though time so quickly really made it hard to see them grow together and then we just had to take their word for it. Several times in later episodes I didn't trust their relationship though I think we were supposed too.

Overall I enjoyed it even if it is historically wrong.