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August 19 2014 @ 02:46 pm
102: Castle Leoch Discussion Post  
Let's discuss... remember we need to stay with the information we have as of episode 2 so talking ahead unless you use the spoiler cuts.


  1. What were your first impressions of Mrs. Fitz?

  2. Did the sight of Jamie's back upset you as much as it did me? Don't you just hate Randall more for the whole Jenny scene?

  3. The looks when Claire mistakenly suggests that Hamish is Dougal's son and not Colum? What is that about?

  4. What was your favorite scene?

  5. Any scenes or moments that seemed confusing?

  6. What did you think of Claire confronting Dougal?

  7. What did you think about Jamie taking Laoghaire's (Mrs. Fitz's granddaughter) punishment?

  8. Thoughts on the end?

Favorite Line/Scene

  1. Claire's whole discussion with Colum about rape.

  2. Claire being surprised Jamie's eaten grass.


Quick Recap
Claire is now at Leoch, we've met Mrs. Fitz and Jamie tells his story when Claire discovers his back is horrifyingly scarred. Claire get's a proper make over for the time period and has to explain what a bra is and then is off to meet Colum (Claire tells us he sufferes from Toulouse-Lautrec Syndrome) to give her story and asks for transport to Inverness which she's told would take place in five days. She observes Dougal playing with a child in the bailey and then at dinner, while Colum is plying her with drink and asking her questions, she makes the assumption that the boy is Dougal's son and comes to find out the boy is Colum's. She discovers Jamie has been sent off to the stables and goes the next day to change his bandage.

Here she learns Jamie is wanted for a murder he didn't commit and that his last name is not McTavish (though she doesn't find out what his last name is yet). She also learns Jamie's eaten grass which was cute in the show but much better in the book. When Claire heads back to the castle she realizes Rupert is following her. She goes to confront Dougal who tells her he thinks she's a spy! Plot twist. Claire essentially tells him her life is boring and follower her all he wants but that he has only until Saturday when she leaves, which he knew nothing about. Sowing the seeds of mistrust between the MacKenzie brother's Claire?

Claire then goes out gathering medicinal plants and meets Geillis Duncan who in my opinion seems rather witch like right there. Her giggling, I think is meant (by the character) to disarm and make her seem innocent and yet I felt creeped out. Claire and Geillis attend Hall where we watch Jamie take the punishment for a girl being accused of loose behavior, who also turns out to be Mrs. Fitz granddaughter. While Claire cleans Jamie up she tells him she is going to be leaving the next day and Jamie seems to get a little chilly.

Next morning, Mrs. Fitz is seeing Claire off when Dougal appears and tells her Colum wants to see her. He takes her to the "Troll Home" Frank and Claire found while exploring and is told it used to be the healers surgery and Colum wants her to take the job because he's not letting her leave.

 
 
 
Jill aka Jo: Outlander: Frank & Claire at Leochsireesanwar on August 19th, 2014 09:49 pm (UTC)
1. I really liked Mrs. Fitz's character and I loved her introduction with Rupert and Murtagh. I like that Mrs. Fitz seems to have an affinity for Claire.

2. I did actually know at some point we'd see Jamie's back and it wouldn't be pretty but wow. My hatred of BJR knows no bounds and "seeing" the story of what happened upsets me more. Also, the amount of time that takes to be put onto Sam's back....I think I read somewhere that took several hours.

3. I actually love the scene when Claire is being plied with drink and is stumbling over her answers and then mistakenly suggests that Hamish is Dougal's son which could be an honest mistake. Still the looks!

4. You would think my favorite scene would be the stables with Jamie and Claire and yet the whole confrontation between Dougal and Claire really made me happy even though that isn't really from the books.

5. I actually thought the scene is Hall was a bit confusing as someone having not read the book wouldn't really understand as the back story to that scene was missing. See Jamie's been "beaten" (spanked) in Hall and he felt the need not to let the girl share the same shame.

6. Again, I loved the confrontation between Dougal and Claire. I like how she pushes him into saying things and then points out when Colum hasn't told him something. I mean it does her cause little good but she's a feisty one.

7. In the show it almost felt like Jamie was showing off which I didn't love but then part of me feels like he's doing it for Claire.

8. Wow, I actually really loved it even if it detours from the book. I love how they've kind of forced her hand and then left her down in the surgery. I mean someone said they locked her away but that doesn't flow with Colum telling her she'll be his prisoner if she tries to escape which I think just means leave Leoch not actually the room.
Jadedivinedrabbles on August 19th, 2014 11:02 pm (UTC)
The confrontation was one of my favourite :D

With Jamie and Claire, man... I findmyself craving more so much freaking more!
Jill aka Jo: Outlander: Claire with Dougals bandsireesanwar on August 20th, 2014 09:53 pm (UTC)
I do too. I feel like the episodes are cutting off. You know. You are so involved and it just ends. I'm seriously considering watching the first two episodes and then the third on Saturday... all in a row.
Jo Ann: Out: Black Jackyeuxdebleu on August 20th, 2014 12:55 am (UTC)
What were your first impressions of Mrs. Fitz?

I loved her.

Did the sight of Jamie's back upset you as much as it did me? Don't you just hate Randall more for the whole Jenny scene?

Yes and yes. However, Jamie's back didn't look as I expected it, to. I have no idea what flogging scars would look like when healed, but I thought his back looked too much like rubber or Latex, not skin. And all the scars looked too much alike. I suppose you know the scene with Jenny, Jamie and Randall at Lallybroch was Sam's first day of filming. The Lallybroch scene was different from the book in several ways, but very effective.

The looks when Claire mistakenly suggests that Hamish is Dougal's son and not Colum? What is that about?

Two things, or one of two things. Seeing Dougal playing with the boy in the courtyard, it would be a logical assumption on Claire's part that Hamish was his son. But having realized that Colum suffers from Toulouse-Lautrec syndrome and as a consequence would be sterile, when she sees everyone staring and thinking she knew the boy is Dougal's, she's caught totally off guard.

What was your favorite scene?

Jamie and Claire's Ye need not be scairt of me scene by the fire. It totally melted my heart.

Any scenes or moments that seemed confusing?

No, because I've read the book. I thought the addition of Claire thinking she was going back to Inverness with the peddler was a nice added twist to the story.

What did you think of Claire confronting Dougal?

Loved it. Claire is so fearless.

What did you think about Jamie taking Laoghaire's (Mrs. Fitz's granddaughter) punishment?

Well, I understood Jamie's reasoning. Doubt he'd have done it if he had known what Laoghaire was really like. The best part of that scene was Sam spewing Gaelic like a born speaker. I loved that. I also liked the way Dougal signaled with only his eyes to keep the punishment going. No words needed. But I thought it was unnecessarily cruel to allow Jamie to be punched on his wounded shoulder. I missed the application of leeches to Jamie's bruises by Mrs. Fitz and Claire, but I understand that scene will be used later. Sam and Cait talked at one of the panels about how funny it was to film.

Thoughts on the end?

A bit different than it was in the book, but it worked. I thought episode 2 was wonderful.
Jill aka Jo: Outlander: Jamie and Claire Lallybroch tsireesanwar on August 20th, 2014 09:51 pm (UTC)
I loved Mrs. Fitz too. She was just great. I loved her interaction with Murtagh.

Yes, admittedly that isn't exactly what I expected but then I think it will improve over time and they aren't that old "currently" and I feel like I know more about what they will look like rather than what they do in the beginning.

Two things, or one of two things. Seeing Dougal playing with the boy in the courtyard, it would be a logical assumption on Claire's part that Hamish was his son. [Spoiler (click to open)]But having realized that Colum suffers from Toulouse-Lautrec syndrome and as a consequence would be sterile, when she sees everyone staring and thinking she knew the boy is Dougal's, she's caught totally off guard.

See that was my reaction. I mean clearly Colum doesn't get out there and run around and play with his son like that so it is natural for his uncle to pick up that slack though then there is Colum's illness.

What you said about Colum's illness... I wonder if that is something that will be revealed later. That is why I have spoiler cut above.

The "Ye need not be scairt of me" scene was pretty great but I like it not because of the chemistry but because it really does showcase Jamie's character. Yes, we know he kind of seems to have a thing for Claire but Jamie's also very chivalrous. Clearly from the Hall scene we know he's interested in protecting women which we also see when he is trying to protect Jenny. Sometimes I wonder if Jamie's desire to protect everyone stems from that feeling of not being able to protect his sister.

I liked Claire believing she could go back too. Made for a nice final moment in the episode.

I felt like Dougal was enamored in that moment. Here is Claire chasing him down and not backing down. He's a strong guy too and just the way he looked at her. Very interesting.

You know I actually liked Dougal in the books so I'm glad that I like him on the show too.

I loved that. I also liked the way Dougal signaled with only his eyes to keep the punishment going. No words needed. But I thought it was unnecessarily cruel to allow Jamie to be punched on his wounded shoulder. I missed the application of leeches to Jamie's bruises by Mrs. Fitz and Claire, but I understand that scene will be used later. Sam and Cait talked at one of the panels about how funny it was to film.

I'm interested in seeing the leeches too. Okay again with actually loving Dougal but then there is also this upset in me that they punched Jamie in the wounded arm. SO LOW!

For me the end seems misinterpreted by other viewers. Claire seems to be locked in but Colum told her she wouldn't be a prisoner unless she tries to flee which I take to mean the castle.

I also have to say knowing the names of the next two episodes is like being tortured. The next episode is The Way Out which to me suggests that Claire is going to try to flee and then the next episode will be called The Gathering.

[Spoiler (click to open)]We know that Claire's attempt to flee in the books leads into the Gathering so I feel like it is going to feel like the show cuts off next week. We'll have to see though.
Jo Ann: Out: Claire looking upyeuxdebleu on August 20th, 2014 11:36 pm (UTC)
Once I open your comment, I can no longer tell what you put under spoilers so if I reveal anything in replying, please feel free to add a clickable spoiler warning to what I say.

See that was my reaction. I mean clearly Colum doesn't get out there and run around and play with his son like that so it is natural for his uncle to pick up that slack though then there is Colum's illness.

Yes, I think it was an honest mistake on Claire's part and a logical assumption that Hamish was Dougal's son. I don't think what she knows about Colum entered into her thinking here. Let's face it...she was getting too drunk to think clearly at that point. ;>)

Yes, what Claire knows about Colum's illness will most assuredly be revealed later.

I like it not because of the chemistry but because it really does showcase Jamie's character. Yes, we know he kind of seems to have a thing for Claire but Jamie's also very chivalrous.

Absolutely! And he realizes for the first time that Claire is emotionally fragile...vulnerable. He immediately wants to protect and comfort her.

I liked Claire believing she could go back too. Made for a nice final moment in the episode.

Yes, it's one of Ron Moore's excellent choices in adapting from book to film.

I liked Dougal a lot both in the book and now in the film. Graham plays the part splendidly and just as I imagined. I'm still trying to figure out why Dougal encouraged the beating to go on and allow the shoulder punch. Did he think Jamie was just showing off and this was his way of punishing him for it? Was he totally displeased with Jamie for stepping in? What do you think?

I agree that the episode's ending would lead viewers to think Claire was going to be kept locked in the surgery, especially when the latch dropped so ominously. But as Colum said, she would only be kept as a prisoner if she tried to leave.

The next episode is The Way Out which to me suggests that Claire is going to try to flee and then the next episode will be called The Gathering.

I didn't recall in the book that she tried to flee until the night of the Gathering, but I may be wrong. I like binge watching shows I love and the wait between episodes in killing me. I feel rather like my life is hold from one Saturday to the next.

Something occurred to me last night. Have you noticed how little Claire eats? She arrived at Leoch without having eaten for who knows how long. She only had the whisky Jamie gave her on Donas. Then Mrs. Fitz talks in the courtyard about getting her something to eat (we don't see what), gives her a bowl of broth the next day and takes it away after only a couple of spoonfuls. At the dinner, she's drinking way more than she's eating. She has missed breakfast the next morning and is shown eating only tiny pieces of something (seeds?) in the stable with Jamie.

Maybe I've just noticed this because I love food so much. LOL

After this sentence: Graham plays the part splendidly and just as I imagined -- I put another sentence under what I thought was a spoiler cut, but it didn't show up at all. I've never tried to do that before and I must not have done it correctly.






Edited at 2014-08-20 11:41 pm (UTC)
Jill aka Jo: Outlander: Logosireesanwar on August 22nd, 2014 12:00 am (UTC)
Absolutely! And he realizes for the first time that Claire is emotionally fragile...vulnerable. He immediately wants to protect and comfort her.

Yes, and I think, in part Jamie's inability to help his sister in the flashback's we see are part of his protective instinct.

I liked Dougal a lot both in the book and now in the film. Graham plays the part splendidly and just as I imagined. I'm still trying to figure out why Dougal encouraged the beating to go on and allow the shoulder punch. Did he think Jamie was just showing off and this was his way of punishing him for it? Was he totally displeased with Jamie for stepping in? What do you think?

I'm going to do two speculations, one under a cut and one not. The one not under a cut is going to be a speculation solely based on what we've seen in the show.

Show Based: So my thinking with Dougal letting the punishment go on could play into Jamie's reaction about Dougal when he talks to Claire in the stables. Jamie says that Dougal knows about it but the way he says it is almost as if there is some kind of issue. It seems like there is some kind of trust issue there.

Books: [Spoiler (click to open)]So as a book fan I see the politics in play here. Jamie stood up in Hall to take a punishment for a young girl which could garner loyalty in other MacKenzies. Remember at this point, right before the Gathering, the wonder if Jamie would make a bid (as Ellen's son) for the leadership of the clan. This way Dougal is knocking him down a peg or two which could really backfire if the clan sees it as unnecessary on Dougal's part. But then I think the idea was to knock him down and show him as weak... which also didn't work either. Maybe... just a thought.

[Spoiler (click to open)]I didn't recall in the book that she tried to flee until the night of the Gathering, but I may be wrong. I like binge watching shows I love and the wait between episodes in killing me. I feel rather like my life is hold from one Saturday to the next.

So Claire decides when the Gathering starts, in the books, that since everyone is inside she could get a horse and take off. But Jamie catches her and tells her Colum would have men standing watch even if she didn't see them and that she'd be stealing from Colum. He then proceeds to walk her back to the castle when he is then forced into taking an oath.


Something occurred to me last night. Have you noticed how little Claire eats? She arrived at Leoch without having eaten for who knows how long. She only had the whisky Jamie gave her on Donas. Then Mrs. Fitz talks in the courtyard about getting her something to eat (we don't see what), gives her a bowl of broth the next day and takes it away after only a couple of spoonfuls. At the dinner, she's drinking way more than she's eating. She has missed breakfast the next morning and is shown eating only tiny pieces of something (seeds?) in the stable with Jamie.

Maybe I've just noticed this because I love food so much. LOL


I did notice she hadn't eaten a lot on camera but I think the assumption is that she's eating when we don't see her.

As for the spoiler code... it is on the sidebar and in the posts. If you just copy and paste it...


Then you text just goes where it says Text Here. It should come up looking like I've done above. I really want to keep us as spoiler free as possible because I want new comers to feel they can participate.

Edited at 2014-08-22 12:00 am (UTC)
Jo Ann: Out: Jamie looks into camerayeuxdebleu on August 22nd, 2014 01:25 am (UTC)
OK, I'll see if this works. Thanks for the explanation. I was trying to do it as an lj cut of some type.

[Spoiler (click to open)]Oh, yes. In the book Dougal definitely sees Jamie as a rival for laird if Colum should die before Hamish is of age and I think you're right about him wanting to take Jamie down a peg and show him as weak. But as you said, it backfires.

And yes, that is exactly how Claire thinks she can flee on the night of the Gathering. The story would be quite different if she hadn't stumbled over a sleeping Jamie in the stable.

What I had tried to but under a spoiler cut before was that we see a MUCH softer side of Dougal when he arranges the marriage between Jamie and Claire in order to protect her from Black Jack.


I really want to keep us as spoiler free as possible because I want new comers to feel they can participate.

Speaking of that, I had an idea for posting a poll here to see how many readers have/haven't read the book(s) and how many have/don't have Starz. I've thought of some questions and if you think this would be an interesting idea, I can give you my suggestions in a PM. LJers seem to like polls. Many of my friends post them and always get wonderful participation.

Jill aka Jo: Sherlock: Mollysireesanwar on August 28th, 2014 12:15 am (UTC)
No problem and it worked.

[Spoiler (click to open)]That political aspect isn't tangible in the show but I think if we see the discussion Claire and Jamie have about it after the marriage then things might become more clear in that regard.

We do see a softer side of Dougal which I do like. You almost see how much he cares about Jamie and that he wants to protect Claire.


That is fine with me but I'm totally fine with you just doing a poll if you'd like. I'd love to participate. I always make the polls and don't get to participate. LOL Either way I'm fine with it.
Jo Ann: Out: Dougalyeuxdebleu on August 28th, 2014 03:08 am (UTC)
[Spoiler (click to open)]I'm guessing that episode 5 will be the clan going on the rent-collecting trip and if they show Dougal collecting separate money for "the cause," we'll start to see politics entering the picture. I suspect they will show him tearing Jamie's shirt off to show people what Black Jack did to his back. I found that quite upsetting in the book. In his own way, Dougal does care about Jamie as evidenced by the complimentary things he says about him when talking Claire into the marriage.

As for the poll, I might do it sometime next week, but I have to learn how to post a poll first. It can't be that difficult since lots of my LJ friends post them. I think it's explained in the FAQs.
Jill aka Josireesanwar on September 2nd, 2014 06:17 am (UTC)
Yes, that is what it is going to be. I'm a little excited to see it.

I always test thins like that in a private post in my LJ because implementing them. I'm seriously considering making the group paid too.
Jo Ann: Text: Get a life error message GIFyeuxdebleu on September 3rd, 2014 01:18 am (UTC)
i do a lot of test posts in my LJ with it set on Private to see how something looks before I post it. I'm planning to redo my layout with all Jamie, all the time, and I'll open a second LJ window to see how it looks before finalizing.
Jill aka Josireesanwar on September 5th, 2014 05:58 am (UTC)
Cool.

Weren't you going to post soemthing? I think we need a introduce yourself posts.