?

Log in

No account? Create an account
 
 
September 09 2014 @ 05:10 pm
105: "Rent" Discussion Post  
As always, all book talk that doesn't pertain to the episodes we've seen is a SPOILER. Please use the SPOILER cut below.

Quick Recap:
Claire goes on the road with the MacKenzie's to collect rents from the Clansmen who couldn't come to the Gathering. Claire witnesses what she believes is Dougal stealing money from Colum only to discover later that he is raise money for the Jacobite Rebellion. Claire feels compelled to tell them the futilitiy of the rebellion but can't do so without giving away what she is. On the trip tensions are high and Claire gets the impression the men hate her which is helped along by Angus's short temper. It isn't until some townsmen call her a whore and the boys defend her honor, much to her shock, that she starts to realize they didn't trust her but also didn't hate her. Claire begins feeling more of a comaraderie with them which is quickly sobered by Dougal's suspicions and an English patrol.

Sadly, not my favorite episode but then they can't all be the best. Still I loved the episode overall but it's at the bottom of my episode barrel.

  1. Overall impressions of the episode. Did you find it slow? What did you think of all the passage of time? Etc.

  2. How did you feel about Claire being excluded when the men were speaking in Gaelic?

  3. What did you think of the Wool Walking?

  4. What did you think of Angus in this episode?

  5. What were your impressions of the part where Claire wants to return the goat to the family? What about the Englishman who popped up?

  6. Dougal ripping Jamie's shirt off??? Go...

  7. Blood pudding... that is a lot of congealed animal blood you know.

  8. If you were in Claire shoes would you try to tell the MacKenzie's about the future of the Jacobite Uprising?

  9. Scene outside of Claire door with Jamie.... I know you want to swoon.

  10. What did you think of the fight in the tavern and the reason the men go into it?

  11. The ending! Do you think Claire will tell them she's an unwilling guest or not?

Noteworthy:
The AfterBuzz Outlander After Show is now up and you can click on the link on the sidebar (link section). Great talk about the show.

Also, I've added some other podcast links to the sidebar. They are all good. Outlander Cast & The Scot and the Sassenach both are spoiler free as they have a reader and a non-reader in each cast. Check them out.

Discussion posts will now be the "sticky" post of the week. The first episode of Outlander is still available but now you can click the link in the sidebar's link list to get to it.

Inside the World of Outlander


The Garrison Commander Promo


Do you have LJ friends who like Outlander? Click the "repost" link (looks like a pencil) to introduce new people to our group and let's get all the OutClander's we can!
 
 
 
Jo Ann: Out: Claire's fur hoodyeuxdebleu on September 10th, 2014 07:10 am (UTC)
Comments - Part 1
Sadly, not my favorite episode but then they can't all be the best. Still I loved the episode overall but it's at the bottom of my episode barrel.

It was my least favorite so far, too.

Overall impressions of the episode. Did you find it slow? What did you think of all the passage of time? Etc.

Overall, I thought the episode dragged and there were too many changes from the book. I liked the added scene where Claire helped Ned with his allergies/asthma. I've noticed on my visits to other Outlander discussion sites that many people are complaining about Jamie being inattentive to Claire in much of this episode. He's in a different situation here; he's with clansmen, his mates so to speak. It would be inappropriate to show too much interest in her because the other clansmen don't trust her and don't feel the same connection that Jamie does. He did save her from Angus when she said she wouldn't eat with thieves, warned her about being judgmental and cast a lot of glances her way, but he had to be more careful since he was in the group.

How did you feel about Claire being excluded when the men were speaking in Gaelic?

I thought it was logical. They don't really trust her, some still think she's a spy. They feel no obligation to include her in their discussions.

What did you think of the Wool Wauking?

I thought the wauking scene was great. Didn't like Angus barging in though. That strayed unnecessarily from the book, IMO.

What did you think of Angus in this episode?

Well, he seemed too rough with Claire, but he's a bully. He's got a much bigger part than he did in the book. Also, Dougal was miffed with him and he's obviously more concerned about staying in Dougal's good graces than Claire's.

What were your impressions of the part where Claire wants to return the goat to the family? What about the Englishman who popped up?

Wanting to return the goat was admirable, but as Jamie told her, "Don't judge things you don't understand." She's forgetting she's in 1743 and how different actions and attitudes are.

Dougal ripping Jamie's shirt off??? Go...

It's in the book so I liked that they were faithful to that. But I felt the biggest thing wrong with this episode was how many times they showed scenes of Dougal doing it. It felt like they were beating us over the head with that scenario.

Blood pudding... that is a lot of congealed animal blood you know.

I would have gagged, but since Claire didn't, I concluded she'd eaten it before in her own time.

If you were in Claire shoes would you try to tell the MacKenzie's about the future of the Jacobite Uprising?

No, because I'd realize Ned and Dougal would think I was a seer or witch if I admitted I could see the future. The Scots simply wouldn't understand...how could they?

Scene outside of Claire door with Jamie.... I know you want to swoon.

It was nice, but I missed hearing Jamie say, "You nearly crushed my liver!" and they didn't bump heads when Claire fell. But I loved the sexual tension between Jamie and Claire.

....Continued. Comment was too long.

Jill aka Josireesanwar on September 10th, 2014 11:40 pm (UTC)
Re: Comments - Part 1
They were just to slow and there wasn't enough story. I think they could have taken Rent and The Garrison Commander made two episodes that blended better but that is just me.

I do agree that less Jamie was almost logical but we know that in the book at this point there is more interactions with Jamie and Claire so to blend that stuff it would have been nice though this part in the book was also a lot shorter.

I thought it was logical. They don't really trust her, some still think she's a spy. They feel no obligation to include her in their discussions.
It is true. It reminded me of school when groups are whispering and teasing someone because they are new.

I thought the wauking scene was great. Didn't like Angus barging in though. That strayed unnecessarily from the book, IMO.
I can see him being frustrated but yeah way over the top. I liked the waulking too. I liked that Claire just fit herself in also.

I know this isn't from the book at this point but it did come later.

Well, he seemed too rough with Claire, but he's a bully. He's got a much bigger part than he did in the book. Also, Dougal was miffed with him and he's obviously more concerned about staying in Dougal's good graces than Claire's.
I agree that Angus was upset because Claire kept getting away from him. I just didn't like how one episode Angus was fun and funny and the next he was angry and cruel, at times.

Wanting to return the goat was admirable, but as Jamie told her, "Don't judge things you don't understand." She's forgetting she's in 1743 and how different actions and attitudes are.

Donalda and the people village didn't seem so poor that they couldn't get milk from another goat. I thought the part seemed almost unnecessary but it showcased Dougal as being cruel and I think that played into him ripping Jamie shirt somehow. I do agree that she is misconstruing what's going on and she doesn't understand things and shouldn't be judging them. But I didn't really get the necessity of that part because then later Dougal gives to people who need it so but then he's getting something too. It just felt contradictory. It was all kind of confusing. Part of me thinks that Claire was doing it because she was so angry with them and for excluding her.

It's in the book so I liked that they were faithful to that. But I felt the biggest thing wrong with this episode was how many times they showed scenes of Dougal doing it. It felt like they were beating us over the head with that scenario.
I agree. It was a bit too much.

I would have gagged, but since Claire didn't, I concluded she'd eaten it before in her own time.
Possibly. She's brave.

No, because I'd realize Ned and Dougal would think I was a seer or witch if I admitted I could see the future. The Scots simply wouldn't understand...how could they?
Exactly. Instead it comes of as some kind of spy or witch and puts you in danger. I wouldn't do it either. I can see confiding in someone once they knew your secret and actually believed you but then Claire doesn't have that... maybe she will though.

It was nice, but I missed hearing Jamie say, "You nearly crushed my liver!" and they didn't bump heads when Claire fell. But I loved the sexual tension between Jamie and Claire.
LOL Me too!

Edited at 2014-09-10 11:41 pm (UTC)
Jo Ann: Out: Tobiasyeuxdebleu on September 11th, 2014 12:26 am (UTC)
Re: Comments - Part 1
Hmm, combining the Rent and The Garrison Commander in one episode would have worked. [Spoiler (click to open)]I wonder if they will have Dougal taking Claire to the spring and explaining about the need to marry Jamie as part the The Garrison Commander episode or if they'll put it in The Wedding episode. I hope it's in The Garrison Commander because I want a full episode devoted to the wedding and wedding night.

I thought Donalda and the other wauking women were great. The woman who played Donalda is a fairly well-known Gaelic singer, but I wondered if the other women were locals being exras. Claire fit right in because she was friendly, helpful and they had no reason to be suspicious of her.

I can see confiding in someone once they knew your secret and actually believed you but then Claire doesn't have that... maybe she will though.

[Spoiler (click to open)]She eventually tells Jamie, but it's with great fear and trepidation that he won't believe her or understand.

I'm looking forward to the next episode because I really like Tobias Menzies a lot in the show.
Jill aka Jo: Outlander: Logosireesanwar on September 12th, 2014 08:15 pm (UTC)
Re: Comments - Part 1
I actually think I meant to take the events of these two episodes and smooth them out over two. But then I'm also thinking they could have added more stuff from surrounding episode timelines. Ugh. Oh well.

[Spoiler (click to open)]Gosh I hope so. I would love to see that part and I can't wait to see Dougal stand up for her. I'm really hoping she protects the Macs and Dougal knows it.

I loved it. The best aspect was Claire joining in. Shows her willingness to fit into the life.

[Spoiler (click to open)]Oh I know. I just didn't want to and a yet to the end of my speculation. Believe me when I tell you I know the books like the back of my hand.

I can't wait either. I'm freaked out that BJR is going to be in the next episode but also excited.
Jo Ann: Crying childyeuxdebleu on September 13th, 2014 04:28 am (UTC)
Re: Comments - Part 1
I'm so sad that we only have three episodes left. I'll probably be sobbing uncontrollably after the 16th episode.
Jill aka Josireesanwar on September 16th, 2014 10:48 pm (UTC)
Re: Comments - Part 1
Me too! Some of the end scenes in the book (I think you know what I mean) are the hardest for me when reading or listening. I'm actually dreading some of the future episodes... though I want them to pick back up in January. PLEASE!
Jo Ann: Out: Keep Calm Trust Ronyeuxdebleu on September 17th, 2014 02:42 am (UTC)
Re: Comments - Part 1
Yes, I know the scenes you mean and they will indeed be hard to watch. I do hope Starz brings the show back in January. They did say "early 2015" and "early" had better mean January.
Jill aka Josireesanwar on September 17th, 2014 09:10 pm (UTC)
Re: Comments - Part 1
See I'm not sure about the Premium channels but typically for winter shows will start in January or wait until March. So let's keep hoping for Jan.
Jo Ann: Out: Claire's fur hoodyeuxdebleu on September 10th, 2014 07:11 am (UTC)
Comments - Part 2
....Continued from Part 1

What did you think of the fight in the tavern and the reason the men go into it?

What Murtagh said about the reason for the fight was good, but I didn't understand why on earth Claire didn't say a simple "Thank you" to the men for defending her honor. She started to see them in a new light, but I think she should have thanked them.

The ending! Do you think Claire will tell them she's an unwilling guest or not?

I think she'll tell them she's there voluntarily. She's knows Randall is in the British army and I think she feels safer with the MacKenzies. She also realizes the Brits will go after the MacKenzie men if she implies she's been kidnapped. The soldier said the clansmen would be "dealt with" if she was being held against her will.

However, the whole bit with the British soldiers was added to the TV show and has changed the trajectory of the story. Dougal took Claire with him not because of her healing skills, but to take her to the British , her people, so they could see that she got where she wanted to go. Makes me wonder what else they'll change before "The Garrison Commander" episode.

The AfterBuzz Outlander After Show is now up and you can click on the link on the sidebar (link section). Great talk about the show.

I'm giving up on AfterBuzz. I find it too annoying listening to them play at "guessing" what's going to happen next when they've read the book (except Ryan) and know what's going to happen. It may be interesting if you haven't read the book, but I have so I find it rather silly. They also get too many things wrong, like pronunciation of names, places, etc. The way they mangled Je suis prest was the last straw for me. If they're going to discuss the show, do their homework first.
Jill aka Jo: Muppets: X-Muppets Geek Outsireesanwar on September 10th, 2014 11:47 pm (UTC)
Re: Comments - Part 2
What Murtagh said about the reason for the fight was good, but I didn't understand why on earth Claire didn't say a simple "Thank you" to the men for defending her honor. She started to see them in a new light, but I think she should have thanked them.
I wanted her to lean down and kiss Angus on the cheek. I loved the sheepish look he had.

I think she'll tell them she's there voluntarily. She's knows Randall is in the British army and I think she feels safer with the MacKenzies. She also realizes the Brits will go after the MacKenzie men if she implies she's been kidnapped. The soldier said the clansmen would be "dealt with" if she was being held against her will.
I agree. I think Claire will use it to gain trust. I think she'll say she's with them of her own free will and cover for them.

However, the whole bit with the British soldiers was added to the TV show and has changed the trajectory of the story. Dougal took Claire with him not because of her healing skills, but to take her to the British , her people, so they could see that she got where she wanted to go. Makes me wonder what else they'll change before "The Garrison Commander" episode.
I do wonder if when she goes to the Garrison if she'll just being lying about herself but also covering for the MacKenzies. There is the whole bit in the promo about being loyal to the King and I think she's going to try to lump the Macs in with her. Just a prediction. Can't wait to see if I'm right.

I'm giving up on AfterBuzz. I find it too annoying listening to them play at "guessing" what's going to happen next when they've read the book (except Ryan) and know what's going to happen. It may be interesting if you haven't read the book, but I have so I find it rather silly. They also get too many things wrong, like pronunciation of names, places, etc. The way they mangled Je suis prest was the last straw for me. If they're going to discuss the show, do their homework first.
Admittedly, they aren't the best "cast" out there but I enjoy them at times. I'm going to keep sharing for those who might care... anyone?

I prefer The Scot and the Sassenach.
Jo Ann: Out: Claire in fichuyeuxdebleu on September 11th, 2014 12:44 am (UTC)
Re: Comments - Part 2
I wanted her to lean down and kiss Angus on the cheek. I loved the sheepish look he had.

That would have been cute, but rather out of character for Claire. I think Angus was the first one to jump up and defend Claire, wasn't he? I think she was very grateful and tried to be nicer after that. She did thank him very nicely when he helped her untie whatever that roll was on her horse.

I think Claire will use it to gain trust. I think she'll say she's with them of her own free will and cover for them.

I see it that way, too. And Dougal will realize Claire is VERY smart and respect her for doing it.

Admittedly, they aren't the best "cast" out there but I enjoy them at times. I'm going to keep sharing for those who might care... anyone?

Oh yes, I think you should. A lot of people are apparently watching AfterBuzz because they have a lot of viewers on YouTube and iTunes. I haven't tried The Scot and the Sassenach. Just haven't had time. I hope to listen to Ron Moore's podcast for episode 105 tonight.
Jill aka Jo: Stock: Lipssireesanwar on September 12th, 2014 08:54 pm (UTC)
Re: Comments - Part 2
That would have been cute, but rather out of character for Claire. I think Angus was the first one to jump up and defend Claire, wasn't he? I think she was very grateful and tried to be nicer after that. She did thank him very nicely when he helped her untie whatever that roll was on her horse.

Yeah it would have been but I just wanted it. I do remember Claire being able to compliment and stroke the egos of the men. Angus was the first to defend her but the impression is he's a hot head.

I not only loved Angus helping her but her thanking him. So great.

I see it that way, too. And Dougal will realize Claire is VERY smart and respect her for doing it.

I truly hope so. I can't wait to see!

Oh yes, I think you should. A lot of people are apparently watching AfterBuzz because they have a lot of viewers on YouTube and iTunes. I haven't tried The Scot and the Sassenach. Just haven't had time. I hope to listen to Ron Moore's podcast for episode 105 tonight.

The Scot and the Sassenach is smart and there is a Scottish accent. That is always nice.

I have yet to listen to the "official" podcast by Ron. I really need too.
Jo Ann: Out: Geillis watches at windowyeuxdebleu on September 13th, 2014 04:01 am (UTC)
Re: Comments - Part 2
I have yet to listen to the "official" podcast by Ron. I really need too.

Ron and Terry haven't done a podcast for ep. 105. I guess they've been too busy.

The Scot and the Sassenach is smart and there is a Scottish accent. That is always nice.

Yes, that is nice. I've tried a bunch of podcasts and my favorite by far is the two women who do one called "outlanderpod" on iTunes. They have very pleasant voices, their remarks are intelligent and they have BOTH read the books so can make comparisons. I like that a lot because as I mentioned before, I find it very annoying listening to people play guessing games about what's going to happen when they've read the books and KNOW what's coming.
Jill aka Jo: Arrow: Oliver and Felicitysireesanwar on September 16th, 2014 10:47 pm (UTC)
Re: Comments - Part 2
Seems like all the podcasters floundered on this episode. They were all late in uploading. Oh well.

See I like listening to the people who haven't read the books. I want to see their surprise and their take on everything. To me that is the most fun I have with it.

See the podcasts that I've listened to where the ladies already know everything have been super boring. But then I don't think that is the same one you are talking about.
Jo Ann: Music: Play symbolyeuxdebleu on September 17th, 2014 02:46 am (UTC)
Re: Comments - Part 2
Intesting how we prefer different types of podcasts. Maybe I'll watch AfterBuzz after all for episode 106. I'm curious to see what they have to say about Black Jack.
Jill aka Jo: Outlander: Standing Stonessireesanwar on September 17th, 2014 09:11 pm (UTC)
Re: Comments - Part 2
It is. I just like getting their take on things. I was actually mad at Outlander Cast for episode 106 because they seemed to miss all the subtle interactions. Scot and Sassenach did a great job.
Debra GrohDebra Groh on September 10th, 2014 05:44 pm (UTC)
Rent Episode
Overall impressions of the episode. Did you find it slow? What did you think of all the passage of time? Etc.

Didn't love this episode. So far, I've been ok with the "artistic license" Ron Moore & Co. have taken, but this one was so far off the beaten path. I was even fine with the wool and felt and "piss" thinking that perhaps some of this went on with Claire and it wasn't mentioned. But the camp scenes and the Redcoats and such just was not at all part of it.


How did you feel about Claire being excluded when the men were speaking in Gaelic?

Since it wasn't in the book I wasn't too fond of it.


What did you think of the Wool Walking?

It was *ok*. I liked seeing it but wondered how that fit in with the whole story.


What did you think of Angus in this episode?

Angus in the book was old and crotchety but he wasn't hateful or vengeful. I don't like Angus on the TV series.

What were your impressions of the part where Claire wants to return the goat to the family? What about the Englishman who popped up?

I get that Claire might have decided to give the goat, but I just think she wouldn't have been that combative in book-land. Didn't like the Englishman or that whole posse thing at the end.


Dougal ripping Jamie's shirt off??? Go...

It was consistent with the book. I don't like Dougal or anything he does.


If you were in Claire shoes would you try to tell the MacKenzie's about the future of the Jacobite Uprising?

NO... they would think she's a witch. I really didn't like this episode.


The ending! Do you think Claire will tell them she's an unwilling guest or not?
I think she wants to, but I think she's not going to.
firstlove02firstlove02 on September 20th, 2014 11:41 pm (UTC)
More wedding day jitters....here to keep me from spoilers...
1. Being a Watcher only, I found this episode wonderful because it is an introduction to Scotland as a character. You have to SEE the country these Scots are risking their lives and dying for. I would think as a book reader it is slow because you have seen this place already and it is review for you. I absolutely LOVED seeing what the country looks like. . The way of life and just how large the MacKenzie lands are. How Dougal connects with his countrymen. Also, it shows the political situation of the rest of the country with the "Watch" and the ugliness that is going on. The harshness there. Jamie's lines to Claire about her not judging what she doesn't understand is what I think the basis and strength of this episode is all about. The passage of time is important because it gives credence to why the men in her company would fight to defend her honor and I suspect to cement her ties to them and influence her decisions in the future. There will come a time when the importance of saving their lives will outweigh her need to keep her secrets.

2.She felt excluded because they were speaking Gaelic. But, she doesn't understand that is their primary language. I hope she makes an effort to learn their culture which includes their language.

3. I think it was in the perfect place. Claire needs to see everyday life. A bit of an ick factor for me. But, these are simple times! The fact that she joins in without hesitance or any mention of the 20th century means she is adapting even though she doesn't consciously know it.

4. Angus is Angus. You just have to take him with a grain of salt. He is quick to react and anger and violence is his go to. But, with him comes a kind of blind loyalty and he won't fain his actions. Their from the heart. So, by the end of this episode when he takes the first blow in defense of Claire's honor and helping her with unloading the cart. She has earned his respect and acceptance.

5. A baby going hungry because the goat is gone to her in so unacceptable she doesn't understand it. It is her 20th century reaction to an 18th century way of life. Life was harsh, times were primitive. As for Lt. Jeremy Foster....I answered that in my review of episode 6. I am crushing on him at the moment!

6. Okay, is this a fair question? shirtless Jamie. Okay,in the context that it happened, I felt so bad for Jamie. I feel as Claire did when she spoke to him about it. It is HIS back after all as he told Dougal. But, I see Dougal as an "any means necessary" kind of guy in that respect. Rebellion means sacrifice after all. I understood it better after seeing episode 6.

7. I think I will pass on this question.

8. This is an interesting question because what it is really asking is do you save your loved one at the expense of yourself and the whole time travel question of changing history for the sake of saving your loved one. Depending on the authors interpretation on the affects on history, changing past events affecting the future, it is hard to say. For me, I would tell them because being in that moment I could not have Jaime or any of them die in that battle. Her tact of telling Ned that hearts can't win against cannon was the way to go. But, Dougal took that as undermining the rebellion. What Claire needs to do is decide whether she is..... all in..... or all out.... Once she decides that. Things will be clearer for her.

9. Swoon first! A great interchange between the norms and mores of the 18th century man and the 20th century woman. A sweet exchange.

10. What I think is significant is that Angus took the first blow against those men insulting Claire of all of them. They made it clear that Jamie was NOT in the room. That is important because if he has started it there would be a question of how the others truly felt about Claire. Murtagh explains it perfectly to Claire. She is a guest of the clan and therefore an insult to her is an insult to them. But, at this point, I think too it is because they respect her for who she is as well. I love that it surprises her. It helps her understand what having ties to a clan means. It is a foreign notion to her as a 20th century woman. It will make leaving, that much harder, if at all.

11. Claire won't tell.
Jill aka Jo: Outlander: Jamie circlesireesanwar on September 21st, 2014 06:44 am (UTC)
Re: More wedding day jitters....here to keep me from spoilers...
1. You have a point. Being a Reader a lot of this episode seems unnecessary. But that isn't really true for the Watchers. It is true. Time builds the relationships that make these men willing to defend her and give us and Claire the knowledge of just what the Scots are fighting for.

2. Well, if she's going to be married to Jamie for any length of time she should... let's hope.

3. I loved that Claire was willing to join in. It also felt to me like Claire trying to find a place in this strange place she's found herself in.

4. That is what I loved most about Angus in this episode. He goes from rather angry and aggressive to being aggressive to defend her which I loved. The sheepish look on his face when Murtagh told Claire... priceless.

5. It is true. It is a very 20th century notion. Not that it is bad but I don't think Claire understood. Part of me thinks this village wasn't that poor and getting milk wouldn't end up being that hard. In the last village, they are poorer and it would have been an issue.

6. Oh yes. Rent really reveals what Dougal is trying to emphasis by showing Jamie's back. Still it was upsetting.

8. I totally agree. Claire needs to determine if she's going to be with the MacKenzie or if she's going to be going "home" and leaving them to their own devices. She also needs and ally. Someone she could tell that would believe her.

9. I loved it. I loved how shocked Jamie was by the idea of sleeping in her room. So adorable.

10. Great points. Claire does get in this moment that having the men on her side is a huge thing and proves to be in her favor in the next episode. I adored how shocked she was.

11. No because in the future she sees them as countrymen too. Plus she's not willing to betray all the people she met at Leoch.