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September 16 2014 @ 10:45 pm
106: "The Garrison Commander" Discussion Post  
As always, all book talk that doesn't pertain to the episodes we've seen is a SPOILER. Please use the SPOILER cut below.


Quick Recap:
Claire covers for the MacKenzies but ends up going with Lt. Jeremy to meet the Garrison Commander. After arriving, Claire has dinner with Lord Thomas and charms him into helping her. Things are going well until Black Jack Randall appears and throws Claire off balance enough to show how sympatheic she is to the Scots. Before long Claire is alone with Randall and finds herself unable to convince him of anything she tells him. Randall reveals his dark side while recounting the tale of flogging Jamie but only shows his true colors when, instead of helping Claire, he attacks her physically. Dougal's assistance prevents Claire from being seriously injured but the only way to protect her further is to make her a Scot by marriage. Claire isn't happy with these turn of events but doesn't want to go anywhere near Black Jack Randall again and so contemplates marriage to Jamie.

  1. How much do you hate Black Jack Randall?

  2. What was your favorite moment whether or not you hated it at the same time?

  3. What did you think of Lord Thomas?

  4. What did you think of Dougal in this episode? Does he redeem himself from past episode actions?

  5. What did you think of the flash back to Frank? (one of the Podcasts calls them Frankbacks, think we should call them that too?)

  6. Did you fear for Corporal Hawkins life after he cut BJR shaving too?

  7. How did you feel about Caitriona's acting in this episode compared to the first episode?

Noteworthy:
[For Book Readers - Spoilers!!!!]
Did you notice Brian Fraser "Black Brian"? Look it's Jamie's dad. I'm going to assume when we get a different take on the story we'll find out more about what happened to Brian.


The AfterBuzz Outlander After Show is now up and you can click on the link on the sidebar (link section). Great talk about the show.

The Inside Outlander below is a playlist of Episode 106 videos which will include podcasts, the Inside Outlander video and promos.

The first episode of Outlander is still available but now you can click the link in the sidebar's link list to get to it.

A few things have changed here and some of our sidebar links are now above on the navigation bar including the episodes link which will get you all the episode discussion posts.

Inside the World of Outlander & Other Episode 6 Videos


The Wedding Promo


Do you have LJ friends who like Outlander? Click the "repost" link (looks like a pencil) to introduce new people to our group and let's get all the OutClander's we can!
 
 
 
catteo: [outlander]jamie|claire breaking the rulcatteo on September 17th, 2014 07:46 am (UTC)
1. I hate BJR A LOT. A whole lot. And, even worse than that, I'm kind of terrified of him. I mean, I thought he was evil in the books but the TV version is a whole new kind of twisted. And it's kind of awesome.

2. Tough question! I think that my favourite moment as a fan was Claire grabbing the booze off Dougal at the end and Jamie's little disappointed face! But my favourite moment in terms of sheer visceral reaction was when BJR said that he had created an exquisite, bloody masterpiece. BECAUSE I ACTUALLY FELT THE HAIR RISE ON THE BACK OF MY NECK.

3. I loved Lord T as comic relief, but I also thought he was a buffoon. Possibly the only time (I PRAY) that BJR and I will see eye to eye. He's clearly more about appearance than competence. But I did love him for worrying about getting dust in the claret BECAUSE THAT IS THE WORST THING THAT COULD HAPPEN IN A WAR. UNDRINKABLE CLARET. #priorities

4. I sort of don't think that Dougal needs to be redeemed? I think that he has always acted in the best interests of Clan MacKenzie and he has never pretended to be anything else. I know that there's the moment where he almost sexually assaults Claire, but he actually steps back and doesn't follow through and, to be honest, thus far that's the only thing he has done that doesn't fit in with what I believe his actual morals to be. I think that moment would be the only thing that he wasn't proud of. But I did love his concern for Claire this episode. Because he absolutely knows that no matter who she may be, there's no way that she deserves to be left with BJR!

5. Loved the Frank moment. LOVE LOVE LOVE. I thought that it came at the perfect moment, it totally sold me on where Claire's head was at, and it made the contrasts between him and BJR even more chilling. I prefer Frank-forwards because I am a stickler when it comes to the direction of my time travel!

6. I thought that Corporal Hawkins was going to get his throat cut. But then I realised that would be too easy. BJR is going to torture him slowly until he begs for mercy. I found it really telling how quickly he left the room after the shaving incident because he was clearly terrified of what might happen. I feel that this is not the first time he has disappointed BJR.

7. I really hadn't given this much thought, but I feel that she's definitely more settled in Claire's head than she was in the first episode. She has definitely found her feet!

[Spoiler (click to open)]So I was looking for Jamie's dad during that entire scene and assumed that it must be the guy standing next to Dougal that they focused on, but tbh he doesn't really look that bothered? I'm pretty sure that I would be showing a hell of a lot more in the way of emotion if my son was being tortured and I was about to have a stroke. I hope that if we get a flashback of Brian's death that the acting is better than this!
Jill aka Jo: Outlander: Jamie Frasersireesanwar on September 17th, 2014 05:41 pm (UTC)
1. I hate BJR A LOT. A whole lot. And, even worse than that, I'm kind of terrified of him. I mean, I thought he was evil in the books but the TV version is a whole new kind of twisted. And it's kind of awesome.

I agree. I really hated him but I felt like in the books, at this point, I didn't like him but didn't quite hate him so much. I like that we went from Claire's attempted rape to this because then we really get to see the level of crazy/evil and it lends a lot of credence to the idea that Claire has to marry and "become a Scot."

I too am terrified of Randall. I like it but he's not one of those bad guys I will end up liking. I seriously just hate him.

Tobias is fantastic!

2. Tough question! I think that my favourite moment as a fan was Claire grabbing the booze off Dougal at the end and Jamie's little disappointed face! But my favourite moment in terms of sheer visceral reaction was when BJR said that he had created an exquisite, bloody masterpiece. BECAUSE I ACTUALLY FELT THE HAIR RISE ON THE BACK OF MY NECK.

I think my favorite innocent moment may have been Jamie telling Claire he thought one of them should know what they are doing.

But yes, to me the best moment in the series was a BJR moment. For me it has to be when he punched Claire. The sheer surprise. The idea that none of the other English officers would have done such a thing... the idea that BJR enjoyed it. I mean yes the idea he liked flogging Jamie set my stomach turning but he was going after a man. Claire is less likely to be able to defend herself.... but then book fans know BJR gets so much worse.

3. I loved Lord T as comic relief, but I also thought he was a buffoon. Possibly the only time (I PRAY) that BJR and I will see eye to eye. He's clearly more about appearance than competence. But I did love him for worrying about getting dust in the claret BECAUSE THAT IS THE WORST THING THAT COULD HAPPEN IN A WAR. UNDRINKABLE CLARET. #priorities

Me too. The podcast The Scot and the Sassenach call him Lord Foppington. I think that is funny. Of course, we all prefer Claire have to deal with a Foppington rather than a Black Jack.

4. I sort of don't think that Dougal needs to be redeemed? I think that he has always acted in the best interests of Clan MacKenzie and he has never pretended to be anything else. I know that there's the moment where he almost sexually assaults Claire, but he actually steps back and doesn't follow through and, to be honest, thus far that's the only thing he has done that doesn't fit in with what I believe his actual morals to be. I think that moment would be the only thing that he wasn't proud of. But I did love his concern for Claire this episode. Because he absolutely knows that no matter who she may be, there's no way that she deserves to be left with BJR!

Yes. Granted taking the goat seemed petty but I doubt Donalda and baby would have gone hungry. They didn't portray her as super poor. She didn't even seem that concerned with the loss of the goat.

Dougal's advances, as I don't see them as attempted rape, didn't get very far. It actually bugs me that everyone thinks Dougal tried to rape Claire but he kissed her and started to go further until she stopped him. Then he backed off. I mean yes she has to slap him but he is bigger and stronger and he didn't push it. She only has to knock him out so he didn't learn about her attempts to escape.

So for me this is more about Dougal proving his measure. And we clearly see the difference between a man of honor and BJR.

TBC...
(no subject) - catteo on September 18th, 2014 10:44 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - sireesanwar on September 20th, 2014 12:16 am (UTC) (Expand)
Jill aka Jo: Outlander: WWII Poster walksireesanwar on September 17th, 2014 05:42 pm (UTC)
Guess it ran long....
5. Loved the Frank moment. LOVE LOVE LOVE. I thought that it came at the perfect moment, it totally sold me on where Claire's head was at, and it made the contrasts between him and BJR even more chilling. I prefer Frank-forwards because I am a stickler when it comes to the direction of my time travel!

Yes! People keep commenting (other places) that Claire was rather dim-witted here by trusting BJR but it isn't about BJR. It is all about Frank. She's searching for Frank in this man. She thinks their relations should mean that there is something of Frank in BJR and clearly that isn't the case... or we don't know Frank as well as we think.

Except it is back in Claire's life... yeah time travel is odd. Frank-forwards. I like it but it is more to type. *pouts* lol

6. I agree. It would have been to easy for BJR and Hawkins. I think BJR wishes to abuse him more.

7. I really hadn't given this much thought, but I feel that she's definitely more settled in Claire's head than she was in the first episode. She has definitely found her feet!

Everyone is praise Tobias, and rightly so but Caitriona was just fantastic in this episode. She clearly looks aghast when she reveals her sympathies. You can watch her pull back when she realizes BJR is baiting her. And then her emotional reactions to what I'm assume are glimpses of Frank that she wants to see in the lies BJR roles out. I mean yes the previous episodes were very different but the acting that is coming out of this woman is just wonderful.

[Spoiler (click to open)]Me too. I kept thinking that he should be more upset but I don't know if they told this guy who he was portraying or if he's thinking he's an extra. I am thinking we should see more of a flashback to this moment in the future when Claire learns about Brian.

In this flashback, BJR is telling us so he may not have really noticed Brian or know to point it out to us. I felt like the scene was BJR painting it for us and he might not know everything Jamie or Dougal would know.
Re: Guess it ran long.... - catteo on September 18th, 2014 10:37 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Guess it ran long.... - sireesanwar on September 18th, 2014 10:41 pm (UTC) (Expand)
wings128: Outlander!J&Cwings128 on September 17th, 2014 09:28 am (UTC)
Oooooh! *mouse hovers over the play icon* Nooooo! 1.07 is one episode I don't want to see spoilers for.
Jill aka Josireesanwar on September 17th, 2014 04:47 pm (UTC)
LOL Yes, well, I didn't either but I watched it and this promo doesn't give away nearly enough. LOL
wings128: Outlander!J&Cwings128 on September 17th, 2014 09:51 pm (UTC)
LOL!
lyndissa78lyndissa78 on September 19th, 2014 03:27 am (UTC)
Hello All. Mind if I join in the discussion?

1. Black Jack made me feel sick, nervous and squeamish the whole time he was on screen. I had a sinking feeling that he was playing Claire, although I did fall for the whole "I'll take you back to Inverness. A start to my redemption," crap!! I jumped when he punched Claire. Did not expect it at all. He is a very good interrogator! Must be in the genes since Frank became and intelligence officer during the war. Yep, I hate BJR a lot.

2. I have two. The moment when Jamie took off his own shirt, folded it up, stood there so proudly and walked calmly over to get flogged, unwilling to break and when he was trying so hard not to let Claire know how much he loved the idea of getting married to her!

3. Lord Thomas is a ass. I felt embarrassed for him because he is just such an arrogant jerk! Loved Dougal just standing there being all 'regal Scotsman'. He took the high road.

4. Loved Dougal in this episode. For the above reasons and also his protectiveness of Claire. He knows how evil BJR is and that Claire didn't have any idea how much danger she was in. His 'Highlander' also came out in this episode with the 'Magic Spring' :)

5. This is where Claire got her lines blurred. She was thinking of Frank while talking to BJR. I don't know about Frank. It was a nice moment. Was it before the war? Because they didn't seem that close after. I suppose it shows where they were hoping to get back to. Moments like this one.

6. Yep, I feared for his life. It looks like he's BJR's go to man to torment. With the shaving and kicking Claire.

7. I think Catriona's acting in this episode was awesome. I didn't know what to make of her the first episode, but I love her now!

Melissa
Jill aka Jo: Outlander: Claire at the windowsireesanwar on September 20th, 2014 12:10 am (UTC)
Not at all... we want our Clan to grow! Welcome, Melissa!

1. Me too. I read the books so I know what is going to happen but even I was starting to believe his desire to be better. I was with Claire and then... gosh I hate him!

2. I LOVED that Jamie folded his own shirt up. It really shows his character. Oh yes, I kept thinking he was going to walk away and start dancing or something. LOL

3. I loved the character of Lord Thomas as an enemy to the Scots but oh yes he was an ass! I wanted to throttle him when he was poking at Dougal who is the MAN! I adore Dougal.

4. Yes it did but I'm betting all the men of the party would believe the same thing... but then they are all Highlanders. I agree Dougal just shines in this episode. After all the distrust between Dougal and Claire, Dougal steps up and protects her. Love him. Maybe he's rough around the edges but I believe Dougal is a good man.

5. It was supposed to be before the war. I think all that talk about the razor meant he didn't want to take it to war with him for fear of losing it... but then Claire went too.

Claire WAS thinking of Frank which did her a disservice but for me; I understand this. The resemblance and her desire to get home probably makes it hard to separate them. I don't think she'll have the problem again.

6. I have to wonder if BJR is going to torment that poor Corporal in the future.

7. Okay same here. I was afraid after episode one but wow... she's just great in this episode. I think things will only get better from here.
firstlove02: Claire and Jamiefirstlove02 on September 19th, 2014 05:55 pm (UTC)
Episode 6
Thank you all for the questions and answers posted on this discussion.

I hope I may just add that the performance of Lt. Jeremy Foster as a rather minor character is so strong by actor Tom Brittney. I am a newcomer to the Outlander world and have not read the books and have decided to see the show then read the books. His strength of character and integrity when he first shows up in episode 5 and now is episode 6 really embodies the conduct you would want from a British Officer. He made me wonder, if he were ordered to kick Claire by BJR if he would carry it out? I know we won't see him again, but I sure hope we do. I could listen to him speak all day.
Jill aka Jo: Outlander: Jamie Frasersireesanwar on September 19th, 2014 09:59 pm (UTC)
Re: Episode 6
No problem.

I did love Lt. Foster and I did think for a TV only character he was amazing in this episode. I did love that Lt. Foster seemed willing to concede point to Claire and he was willing to defend Dougal to a point.

He really is what you'd want any officer to be like.

I rather hope we see him too as he's fabulous. I honestly believe he would have stood up to BJR.

PS: Welcome to the Outlander world and thank you for telling us you are a TV watcher. If is for you we are trying hard to keep things spoiler free.

Edited at 2014-09-19 10:00 pm (UTC)
firstlove02firstlove02 on September 20th, 2014 12:52 am (UTC)
Re: Episode 6
Thank you sireesanwar for the warm welcome to the Outlander world. I was hooked immediately by the chemistry of Sam and Cait as Jaime and Claire and as themselves.

I can truly feel the labor-of-love this series is from everyone involved. I am so impressed on many levels. It is so rare to hear a producer tell his production staff to "sweat the details" as Ron Moore has, to the point where the the color of the "red coats" of the British soldiers had to be woven to a particular color of red and are all handmade. On seeing the comparison to other "red coats" in other films. I appreciate the difference.

I know it made Lt. Foster even more impressive. It is a gorgeous uniform.

I am so happy to join the Outlander world. :)

P.S. Here is a link to an access hollywood interview of Tom Brittney on his role as Lt. Jeremy Foster. I loved it. http://www.accesshollywood.com/outlander-qanda-tom-brittney-on-making-an-impression-with-lt-jeremy-foster_article_98743?__source=rss|imdb|latest-originals&utm_source=rss&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=latest

Re: Episode 6 - sireesanwar on September 21st, 2014 04:49 am (UTC) (Expand)
caramia_darlingcaramia_darling on September 19th, 2014 11:32 pm (UTC)
Re: Episode 6
I'm another TV-watcher - I didn't even learn about the book series until a few weeks ago, but I love the show and the characters thus far.

I'm on the hate BJR wagon, too. He gave me goosebumps - bravo, Tobias Menzies! Like Claire, I too was taken in, which I guess is the point, since we are seeing the series through her eyes. I felt that punch to the gut as if he had hit me myself. But I think the mental and emotional wound might have been more painful than the actual physical pain. This is a man with Frank's face and Frank's guilt and she had the opportunity to 'save'him - that's what she does, after all. That punch knocked out all the air and all the hope that she would make it back to Inverness, her time, and save the man she loves from himself.

She erred. We all did. I don't think any of us saw it coming. But, that mask he wore... it's much easier to see it slipping for nanoseconds on a second watch. And so we and Claire, will be reliving those moments over and over again.
Jill aka Jo: Outlander: Je Suis Prestsireesanwar on September 19th, 2014 11:52 pm (UTC)
Re: Episode 6
Yay! Another TV Watcher! I'm so glad the show hooked you!

Okay so I read the book and I was seriously starting to think BJR was going to have this non-evil side... he snowed me too. I'm freaked out by that character BUT I love Tobias. He totally deserves and Emmy for this.

So true. It is exactly what she felt. I'm so glad you caught that. She is clearly having trouble separating Frank and Randall but I'm guessing that won't be an issue again.

He creeps me out!
Re: Episode 6 - firstlove02 on September 20th, 2014 01:32 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Episode 6 - firstlove02 on September 20th, 2014 07:38 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Episode 6 - caramia_darling on September 20th, 2014 12:08 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Episode 6 - firstlove02 on September 20th, 2014 07:58 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Episode 6 - sireesanwar on September 21st, 2014 04:55 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Episode 6 - firstlove02 on September 24th, 2014 06:33 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Episode 6 - sireesanwar on September 27th, 2014 06:42 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Episode 6 - sireesanwar on September 21st, 2014 05:16 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Episode 6 - sireesanwar on September 21st, 2014 04:53 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Episode 6 - firstlove02 on September 24th, 2014 06:34 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Episode 6 - sireesanwar on September 27th, 2014 06:43 am (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Episode 6 - sireesanwar on September 21st, 2014 04:52 am (UTC) (Expand)
firstlove02firstlove02 on September 20th, 2014 09:18 pm (UTC)
I have wedding day jitters....
So, since I am having wedding day jitters and am soooooo excited about the wedding episode coming out today I will pass the time in answering these lovely episode questions instead of looking at internet things that may inadvertently contain spoilers.... So, onto the questions for this episode...

1. I think I have already answered this one....next...

2. Well, aside from everything that Lt. Jeremy Foster was in ( I am crushing on him a bit) and particularly him seeing eye to eye with Dougal before they were chided by Claire. It is the moment that Claire figures out that BJR has gotten the better of her in front of the British officers. Her passion and strong will got the best of her and she realizes at that moment how BJR used it and played her strength against her.

3. Lord Thomas was funny. The typical entitled aristocrat who is so disconnected with what truly is going on around him that he is blind to everything. But, I do think that every single officer in that room knows exactly what BJR has done and is doing. But, they allow it because it keeps them in power over the Scots. Plus, they don't have to get their hands dirty.

4. I liked Dougal in this episode because he rescued Claire. He has genuine concern for Claire's well being and I believe it is not out of what use he can make of her. That it stands on its own. His growing respect for Claire is clear despite his distrust of her being English. The episode went a long way in building Claire and Dougals' relationship. I don't believe that "redemption" for past actions is really accurate in his case because he is principled by nature. His drunk advances against Claire during the Gathering episode was a bad choice that sober he wouldn't have done. It doesn't excuse him, but his true nature is not that of a rapist or lascivious in nature towards Claire. In fact, if that were true, he would not have chosen Jamie to marry her. He would have married her himself as Claire assumes by the end of the episode. But, since I assume Dougal is love with his brother's wife. Him marrying Claire would not go over too well with her. There is a love triangle going on there, but that is another topic....

5. I like the flashbacks. Any chance to see more of Frank is great for me. I love him as a character, but "Frankback" sounds like some kind of sausage breakfast dish that doesn't appeal to me. Claire is in love with Frank and any chance to see their relationship and how she delights in him is just a treat to see. She indulges his love of history and accompanies him to all the historical places he wants to visit because she knows how happy that makes him. It is quite the selfless love of another person's passionate persuits that makes her a good marriage partner.

6. I think corporal Hawkins had to change his underwear out of fear for his life after that shaving nick to BJR. I didn't like that BJR used him so easily to assault Claire because he feared more for his own life then what he was doing to her. He has no spine.

7. I think Cait's acting is consistent throughout all the episodes for what the character is going through at that moment. This episodes journey was more of the mind vs the first episode that was more of the elements and the aftershock of time travel. Cait is very good at showing Claire thinking in just how she pauses a bit and the intonation of her words. It is in the eyes and looks as well. I love the ease of how she retains her femininity amongst the company of men. Yet, she has all of their respect as an equal. So many times, you see an actress in the company of all men and they exude more of a masculine persona so they appear equal to the men. Cait doesn't do that, yet she is every bit as equal to them. Bravo Cait!

In closing, I just wanted to add that this episode also was so telling of Jaime's character. His abominable spirit during his flogging. You only get the true sense of that through BJR's telling of the flogging that you don't get from how Jamie relays the story. It also answers the reason WHY those men risked their lives to break him out of prison and now why he has a price on his head. Jamie embodies a Freedom that could unite a country in rebellion against the English. Dougal knows that.

Edited at 2014-09-20 09:38 pm (UTC)
Jill aka Josireesanwar on September 21st, 2014 06:17 am (UTC)
Re: I have wedding day jitters....
Me too. All week I've been say... this many days until the wedding. I'm so glad it has happened already. Sooo good.

2. I hope we see Lt. Foster again.

That is a great moment when Claire realized just what a monster BJR is. The way he manipulated her. It was crazy to see.


3. But, they allow it because it keeps them in power over the Scots. Plus, they don't have to get their hands dirty.

That is very true. BJR is one of those guys that advances because he is willing to get his hands dirty.

4. I agree with your assessment of Dougal. Do I think he's not using Claire for his own purposes? No. I think everything Dougal does furthers his agenda even if it is also to save Claire. Dougal is smart and if a marriage between Jamie and Claire can benefit him in any way, he'll think of it.

5. I'll admit I do love Frank in the series. All I'll say is the books are very different in this aspect. I do like seeing that in the series Frank and Claire had more of a relationship. I do like seeing how Claire accommodates Frank's love of history. One thing I love about Claire is her ability to embrace the people and things around her.

6. I agree. He as terrified of BJR. I do have to wonder if he had any recourse to deal with Randall. There is Lord Thomas but I wonder if he would need proof and what would happen to Hawkins if they decided to leave him under Randall's command.

7. Cait is brilliant though for me episode one felt a little weaker but that is just me. I totally agree that I love she's strong but she's very feminine and yet still equal and as strong as the men. Wonderful.

In closing, I just wanted to add that this episode also was so telling of Jaime's character. His abominable spirit during his flogging. You only get the true sense of that through BJR's telling of the flogging that you don't get from how Jamie relays the story. It also answers the reason WHY those men risked their lives to break him out of prison and now why he has a price on his head. Jamie embodies a Freedom that could unite a country in rebellion against the English. Dougal knows that.

I'm so happy you see this. Jamie has a strong and admirable character. It is probably why so many people adore the books. But Claire's character matches his in so many ways which is what brings there story to life.