?

Log in

No account? Create an account
 
 
September 28 2014 @ 12:00 pm
108: "Both Sides Now" Discussion Post  
As always, all book talk that doesn't pertain to the episodes we've seen is a SPOILER. Please use the SPOILER cut below.


I wasn't sure I'd be able to watch the episode because I have company but my BFF decided she's watch with me so I'm overjoyed.

Quick Recap:
In 1743, Claire is spending time with her new husband Jamie who wants to know if the connection between them is usually. She can only tell him no seeing as everything seems more intense to her as well. Claire and Jamie meet a local named Hugh Muro who brings Jamie news of an English deserter named Horrocks who saw the death of the man Jamie is accused of murdering. Jamie's determined to clear his name and on the way, while off together, Claire and Jamie are attacked by two other deserters while in the throws of passion. Claire ends up defending herself after a lesson in protection from Angus. Murtagh and Dougal advise Jamie not to go see Horrocks alone and to protect Claire the men leave her behind with Willie while the go to meet Horrocks.

Meanwhile in 1945, Frank is searching for Claire and speculating on the reason behind Claire's disappearance. Frank gets into an altercation with two men who try to mug him for the reward money he put up to find Claire. Back at the Manse, Mrs. Graham tells Frank her theory on Claire's disappearance much to Frank's dismay.

In 1743, Claire realizes she's close to the standing stones and makes a break for them calling out to Frank, while it 1945, Frank has arrived at the stones calling out to Claire. They both seem to hear each other until Claire is captured by Red Coats and taken to Ft. William and Black Jack Randall.

At Ft. William, Claire tries to thwart Black Jack Randall's plans for her by insinuating she also works for his patron the Duke of Sandringham. Randall trick Claire isn't revealing her lies and then proceeds to assault her physically and sexually until Jamie burst through the window to save her much to Randall's surprise.


  1. What did you like most about the mid-season finale?

  2. Was there an aspect of the story that concerned you or you didn't like?

  3. Do you think Claire is having trouble distancing herself from Jamie and remembering Frank?

  4. Did you like Angus teaching Claire how to defend herself?

  5. What did you think of Mrs. Graham speculating that Claire could be a traveler who went through the stones to a different time?

  6. What did you think of Frank in this episode? Did you see the relation to Black Jack Randall? Or do you see a clear difference? What about him leaving her things behind in Inverness?

  7. What were your thoughts on Frank and Claire being at the stones in two different times calling out to each other? Did you notice Claire's wrap that she lost early on was still at the bottom of the big stone when she gets there in 1743? I think that is to make the distinction of what time she is in.

  8. How did you feel about Claire trying to trick Randall and his reaction initially?

  9. How will we endure until April 4?


Noteworthy:
I will try to add AfterBuzz when I can. I'm going to be a bit delayed on all my usual tasks in regards to Outlander but I hope you all enjoyed the episode and are counting down to the Mid-Season Premiere.
Outlander Episode 108 Both Sides Now Playlist

Do you have LJ friends who like Outlander? Click the "repost" link (looks like a pencil) to introduce new people to our group and let's get all the OutClander's we can!
 
 
 
catteo: [outlander]jamie dark of the nightcatteo on September 29th, 2014 02:26 am (UTC)
I have so many things to say about this episode that clearly my own post is going to be nuts. So I will instead simply focus on your points!

1. I am totally biased and so the thing that I liked best was the sense that Claire and Jamie are really developing a bond and that she's being included as one of the gang. Such a different feeling in the tone of all the interactions compared to Rent.

2. I wouldn't say that I didn't like it, or that it concerns me, but I feel as though we've not really gotten to know Jamie well enough for this point in the story. Which made Claire's actions this week really understandable to me since I guess we really only know him as well as she does, but in the books I sort of felt as though she was more invested at this point. I'm just going to be interested to see how this plays out in the back half given that there's a lot of story to get through and not a lot more time to establish feels.

3. I've kind of alluded to this above, but the problem is that I don't really know. I definitely feel that there's a growing bond there and I honestly believed that Claire had forgotten about trying to get back to Frank. But then this episode sort of brought all the Frank feels hammering home for her and I suddenly felt as though Frank was the most important thing in the world to her. I am as confused as poor Claire!

4. That whole scene with Claire being taught how to fight was fabulous. I adored everything about it.

5. I'm not really sure what the point was of the Mrs Graham thing. I suppose that they used it as a reason for Frank to go to the stones, but maybe he'd have done that anyway. Perhaps it's going to be used more as the series progresses given what we find out of what Frank did. [Spoiler (click to open)]The only thing that really confuses me about this is that Frank is supposed to not believe Claire's story when she gets back and so here we have Claire's story almost being corroborated and I just wonder what they'll do about that in the next season.

6. Frank stuff was great. Really felt bad for him but was also creeped out by him morphing into BJR with his hands round that girl's throat. Thought it was a good comparison. Understood about him leaving Claire's things.

7. Thought that scene was beautiful. For a second I actually thought that they had gone totally off book! I did notice the wrap although I think she dropped it once she had come through?

8. I thought that Claire was great but when she started making stuff up about the Duchess I was just SHUT UP CLAIRE, HE'S TRYING TO TRICK YOUUUUUU!

9. I will be rewatching and re-reading and praying for season 2 casting info and shooting hints and writers room hints and STARING AT GIFS OF JAMIE BEING AWESOME.
firstlove02: Claire and Jamiefirstlove02 on October 2nd, 2014 12:58 am (UTC)
3. I've kind of alluded to this above, but the problem is that I don't really know. I definitely feel that there's a growing bond there and I honestly believed that Claire had forgotten about trying to get back to Frank. But then this episode sort of brought all the Frank feels hammering home for her and I suddenly felt as though Frank was the most important thing in the world to her. I am as confused as poor Claire!

I definitely feel it was deliberate to have the Frank and Claire lovestory front and center here in a way that gives the love Claire has for Frank some weight. You see that he is suffering intense loss/grief over Claire's disappearance . She is the love of his life. His protectiveness at the train station at the beginning when they are both in uniform, ( Frank looked quite nice in that British Uniform, ahem)where she is sent to the front lines. That kiss he gave her, plus his respect and admiration for her own wishes as person is what that scene is about. You hear him ask her to promise she will return to him as the train pulls away and she gives him that promise. It is beautiful. It gave the stones sequence between them more gravity in that the love they have for each other can reach through time. It makes it epic too. Besides, Frank is more the "ordinary" guy compared to Jamie in this love triangle. Moore had to give him layers and some "moves" with that black jack to show that the "ordinary" guy is more like the Jason Bourne spy.(As Blake from Outlandercast puts it.) You may be confused as Claire, but I am concerned as a Show-Watcher because now Ron Moore is getting me invested in Frank and I just don't want the rug to be pulled out from under me later on in the season. So, hopefully, he is NOT that cruel.

9. I will be rewatching and re-reading and praying for season 2 casting info and shooting hints and writers room hints and STARING AT GIFS OF JAMIE BEING AWESOME.
As well as enjoying seeing Sam Heughan climbing Scottish ridges. Sam Heughan is having a really good year. Good for him. What a cutie.... https://twitter.com/Heughan/status/516915431375142912

Edited at 2014-10-02 01:07 am (UTC)
catteocatteo on October 2nd, 2014 04:04 am (UTC)
Yup, see, I fully understand that Ron has made the decision to turn Frank into a more rounded character than he is in the books in order to make us really believe in Claire's dilemma. I get that, I do. I see the sense in it. My concern is that many people who have not read the books are really rooting for Frank. Which isn't a problem, you're totally entitled to do so, but knowing where this story is heading I am concerned that the development of Frank has come at the expensive of fleshing out Jamie in the first half of the season. I am primed to love Jamie because I know book Jamie, but if you didn't know that all the book folks are 100% about Jamie and Claire would you really be Team Jamie at the moment? Or would you be confused?

I think that Ron has pretty much said that we've seen the last of Frank.

I love that Sam is basically action man. Good for him indeed!
firstlove02: Claire and Jamiefirstlove02 on October 3rd, 2014 12:12 am (UTC)
My concern is that many people who have not read the books are really rooting for Frank. Which isn't a problem, you're totally entitled to do so, but knowing where this story is heading I am concerned that the development of Frank has come at the expensive of fleshing out Jamie in the first half of the season.
I think you may be right about this for some viewers.... There are only 16 episodes to do and cover everything in Outlander. It is a tough place to be, what to leave in/add and take out. Really, almost a razor's edge kind of thing in doing a TV adaptation of such a beloved series of books. But, I think Ron Moore is keenly aware of this. If Diana Gabaldon trusts him, that is good enough for me. TV Outlander is Ron Moore's creation after all. Besides, there are 8 more episodes to go. That is a lot of time for Jamie to come to the place he needs to go. I think he will come out just fine.

I am primed to love Jamie because I know book Jamie, but if you didn't know that all the book folks are 100% about Jamie and Claire would you really be Team Jamie at the moment? Or would you be confused?

There is a magic that exists between Claire and Jamie that is palpable and leaps off the screen at you. Come on, chemistry is chemistry and between Claire and Jamie and Frank and Claire. The clear right man for Claire IS Jamie. I am not confused about that, even only having seen the first 8 episodes. But, that is not to LESSEN all that Frank and Claire share and THEIR lovestory.

I think Ron Moore knew this, and this is kind of a way to say, hey, we all know that Jamie is THE guy for Claire. But, Frank also is not "chopped liver." To me, a strong episode about Frank, doesn't mean I don't know that Jamie is the clear RIGHT man for Claire. Does that make sense? It is almost like this episode is Frank's swan song. In fact, I kind of respect it because it gives Claire another layer. She married Frank after all. She doesn't strike me as a woman who settles. So, Frank had to be special. He just isn't Jamie, that's all.
Jill aka Josireesanwar on October 5th, 2014 08:04 am (UTC)
1. I agree. Now she is part of the clan of the community. So they accept her and to see Jamie and Claire so close. The thing I loved the most was all the sweet kisses. They kissed several times in the episode just because they were near each other.

2. I agree. We still don't know a lot about Jamie though Claire learns a lot more after the marriage and this is just the beginning of that, but at this point Claire does. I really hope we get to learn a lot more about Jamie in the first few episodes of the second half of the season.

3. I do agree the show is really making us go back and forth between Jamie and Frank. But I also think the show is subtlety telling us that the things Claire want are really coming from Jamie. Claire wanted home and family in the beginning and Jamie gave it to her whereas Frank hadn't. Then a podcaster pointed out something that floored me. Frank called her Mrs. Frank Randall before they went to get married and Jamie called her Claire Fraser after they were married. They implied this meant Jamie accepts her more for who she is. I find that interesting.

4. I loved how much Jamie and Murtagh are grinning in the background like Claire is the best thing ever.

5. I didn't love it but at the same time I liked that the idea was put out there with some rules to it. Only some people can travel. I think in part that is why they did it.
[Spoiler (click to open)]I think it is highly possible Frank will be able to refuse to believe her and we might see him looking into the past. I think later we learn Frank did find Jamie and never told Claire so maybe we'll see that.

6. Holy crap he freaked me out. And I heard on a podcast that the "billy club" he beat those men with is also called a Black Jack. *mind blown*

I was actually annoyed with him leaving her belongings behind because to me he gave up on her that easily. I didn't feel like it was just too hard for him but rather he decided he was going to move on. I don't know. It bothered me.

7. I liked it because of the drama of it. I bet that really grabbed the show fans.

She left the wrap after she came through so it was neat to see it still there.

8. OMG I was too. You never fall for the.. "So you know about such and such" thing. Oh Claire. Sometimes you make me sad.

9. We need fan gifs for our sidebars if you want to get on that. LOL Yeah I'm not watching the show for a few days and then I'm going to go back to it. I have to do my recap for the site still. *sigh* Life is so busy.
firstlove02: Claire and Jamiefirstlove02 on September 29th, 2014 05:25 am (UTC)
How this episode was for me....
The Frank episode written by Ronald D. Moore. Those 4 minutes of Frank and Claire running towards each other through time with sweeping views and Bear McCreary’s epic music playing bagpipes gave me goosebumps and I felt as if I was watching a full on big screen motion picture. Goodness me I love this show. Beyond any expectation I have ever had of a TV show.

Frank stepping out of that car, he looked so amazing. With his coat moving over his pants as he ran up the hill. Perfectly shot camera angles and the music starting with flutes, then bagpipes and director Anna Foerster camera angles following Frank up into the stone circle as the camera pans and he sees the stone that Claire passed through time in was magnificent. My heart broke for him as he finally let his feelings go and wept for Claire, his love, as he calls out for and she calls back to him through the stone. That he hears her for a moment stuns him and he looks around to see where she might be. I love that she WAS there only 250 years prior to the time Frank was standing there. Interesting prospective regarding the time travel. So close, yet so far….. It gave the Frank and Claire lovestory its due.

In this episode, you see the torment and desperation he goes through after her disappearance. I love the description of the darkside the Reverend tells Frank in their conversation. Also, in this episode we get to see that Frank is quite more than a history teacher and former spy. He can handle himself. Those thieves may think twice before they jump the next guy. But, BJR must have drank the whole evil pitcher then!

I just KNEW that Mrs. Graham knew what was going on. I was hoping I was right about that. We learn all about time travel through her. So, now we understand just how time travel is handled in the Gabaldon interpretation.

Again, I watched it twice because Jamie Fraser twice is always better than once. *sigh*

I think it can also be called the ring episode as well. We see it, even with Claire and Jamies’ hands intertwined you see the gleaming gold ring between them that links the transitions from Claire to Frank. Claire in this episode is more and more right at home in 18th century Scotland with a Scottish husband. I love how Jamie asks Claire about their relationship without ever asking how it compares to her marriage to Frank. Such a sweet exchange with Hugh Munro on the hill and her only wedding gift, not from Jamie. We have to see Munro again.

Her self- defense training exercise with Angus shows how she has adapted to the times and been accepted by the Highlanders in her group. Bravo to Cait, I felt how exposed and violated she was this episode. How she copes with her assault and then self-defense stabbing and killing of the British soldier shows the strength of Claire. One amazing survivor. But, the attack and situation prompts the central questions of choice she is essentially faced with. I think that is the central question that once she truly decides on will make things clearer for the logical mind of Claire. At the end of the episode, she is at the point of her own dagger and about to be raped by BJR just as Jamie bursts in. He could have shot BJR right there for me and I would be so happy at his ending.

Not my favorite episode because of the ugliness in it which means the darker turn of the rest of the season starts right there. You know it does with BJR in the mix. It makes me scared for both Claire and Jamie.

“Last I was here, I was Claire Randall, then Claire Beauchamp, then Claire Fraser. The question was, “Who did I want to be?” The real cliff hanger for the mid-season finale of Outlander as far as I am concerned.



Edited at 2014-09-29 06:15 am (UTC)
firstlove02firstlove02 on September 29th, 2014 06:15 am (UTC)
Re: How this episode was for me....
Thanks for the inside look for this episode sireesanwar. I love having it there. It was so nice not to have any spoilers. I see now how this is a departure from the book in some ways according to Moore.

1. What I liked most about this episode was giving the Frank and Claire lovestory its due as I described it.

2. I didn't like her sexual assault and having to have kill by stabbing that British soldier. But, the way it was filmed gave the most impact of the violation of it all. The emotional shock she goes through. Of course BJR in his full savagery towards Claire. BJR is truly terrifying.

3. She is. Torn between two men who love her and that she loves as well. Both are part of her and to have to hurt one for the other. Well, that is never easy.

4. Yes, I like it. So, Angus has knife skills! I would not have pegged him with that skillset for sure. I thought it interesting just have she never questions learning. Good thing too, those skills came in handy just a while later.

5. Well, I KNEW it!!! It also answers the question I had as to why she was waiting so long to say something to Frank.

6. I so love Frank. Definitely there are layers to Frank. I love how he actually gives in to that small bit of hope that Mrs. Graham gives him as he stops then backs up on the road. I just wanted to give props to Tobias for playing that sequence to Claire without her being there. Only the stone.

7. This sequence is my favorite as I described above. Gave me goosebumps as to how good it was.

8. Well, Claire used the information she had to do the best she could with it. Again, he outsmarted her. If only she paid a bit more attention during the 20th century history lesson she would have been must better off. His reaction to hearing the Duke's name was priceless because I don't think many, if any, take BJR by surprise. He is the better mental chess player at that moment. See, instead of marrying Jamie to solve the BJR problem, they should have been plotting his ambush.

9. How will I endure until April 4? Lots of Kleenex initially. What were those stages of grief/loss again? Reminiscing over Jamie/Sam moments. Living life in the now. Setting the phone alarm widget from now until April 4th. (Will have to look up how to do that one)
Jill aka Jo: Sherlock: SHsireesanwar on October 7th, 2014 07:56 pm (UTC)
Re: How this episode was for me....
1. For me this episode and seeing Frank go through all this, is a goodbye. We get to see love there but I don't know if it is true love. But they had some kind of love for one another (though I'm not in favor of Frank at all). I think Frank leaving Claire's suitcase behind is a clear goodbye. Now we need to see if Claire is going to say goodbye to Frank.

2. Claire was assaulted but she wasn't actually raped. And while I see your point, I love that she killed the man. It is going to be a hard thing for Claire but it shows the reality of the situation and the times... and the man deserved it.

3. I agree. Though I wouldn't say Claire is in love with Jamie at this point. I feel like she really likes him and is seeing a future with him, and wanting that future. But then it is pretty easy to love Jamie.

4. I loved Angus having this role of teaching her and being so happy and willing to do it. Not only does Claire learn something useful but we see a growth in the relationship between Claire and the rest of the MacKenzie men. They are not only accepting her but see to really care by even suggesting she needs to be able to protect herself. They are willing to do it but should the need arise they want her prepared. I loved it.

5. Yep.

6. It was a moving scene and Tobias is brilliant.

8. Claire isn't a chess player at all. She's upfront and honest. Now the case can be made that she is dishonest because she's had to lie about herself a lot but for me it doesn't count because she can't go around saying she's a time traveler without being burned at the stake. But in this Claire had time to think this through and still she flubbed it. My advice. Don't try to make up elaborate lies, Mrs. Fraser.

9. So we are going to have to do some discussions here. I think things like... What questions do you hope to have answered?

Maybe we'll have a hunt for multiples of 3.

I think also going through the episodes and finding things that need defining for fans.... I'm trying to compile a "dictionary".
seraphceleneseraphcelene on October 1st, 2014 03:30 am (UTC)
Re: How this episode was for me....
So close, yet so far….. It gave the Frank and Claire lovestory its due.

Totally agree!!

Again, I watched it twice because Jamie Fraser twice is always better than once. *sigh*
ha ha!! Word!!

You remind me of how much I loved the way the near-rape scene was shot. The focus on Claire and the way the rest of it is very blurred and out of focus. She's hijacked for a moment and then everything gets sharpened, heightened, for the remainder of the episode. It's an interesting contrast to the violence that the men, in both times, enact. The brutality is clear and intentional. I don't know if that reading is very gender focused or if it's something that is meant to highlight the way she is a healer while she is surrounded by warriors.
Jill aka Jo: Muppets: Kermitsireesanwar on October 7th, 2014 07:44 pm (UTC)
Re: How this episode was for me....
I really was a magnificently done episode.

My question here is really does Mrs. Graham know what is happening? Or is she speculating as to the stories about the stones? What exactly does she know and why where they dancing around the stones?

Mrs. Graham told Frank all this information about time travel and certain people having the ability but she is telling him they are old stories and doesn't actually say it is what is happening though I do believe she believes it.

So for me the question still remains, what is up with the dancing?

BJR refills that cup of evil. I think he invented it.

I am terrified for Jamie and Claire because even if (and let's just assume) they get out of this situation, you just know it isn't the end. BJR is going to plague us all!
seraphcelene: pick a heart by artfully doneseraphcelene on October 1st, 2014 03:22 am (UTC)
As ever, I'm always enthralled with watching Claire adapt to the world that she is in, so, Angus teaching her how to use a dagger was a highlight for me. As one of two sisters in a family with five brothers, I'm also a sucker for groups of guys taking a girl under their wing. So, here is this group of rough, untrusting Highland warriors teaching a thin Sassenach woman survival skills. They've adopted her, it's a trend that's been developing since Rent. I loved the easy camaraderie.

I also loved the reminder we get that these are dangerous lads. Jaime telling Claire, "we all know" when they are about to be attacked. I think that the lads have been a little de-fanged. We see them in terms of how Claire frames them and they are largely harmless, here they are once again big, braw, deadly lads and they know their business.

The Adventures of Claire Beauchamp is the concept that drew me to this series. A WWII triage nurse displaced in the 18th century. That element doesn't get played up as much as I would like. So, watching Claire identify her condition as shock was a key one for me. Her very logical mind is cataloging the symptoms and identifying the condition, and part of me wonders how many times she has gone through shock and under what circumstances. I LOVED it!

Claire's disconnect with Jaime was beautifully highlighted here, also. The way that Jaime is so much more invested in the relationship because Claire is, despite the distraction, perpetually looking for a way back to her own time. For Jaime, this is it. His wife, his bride, life ahead. For Claire, it's a pit stop, a necessary evil on the journey to a much larger goal. The developing emotional relationship with Jaime is on a slow burn and I like that. I like seeing how she is torn between her immediate and visceral response to Jaime and the memory of her attachment to Frank which has been diluted by five years of war time separation. But there is still the memory of home and comfort and familiar things, so when she runs to the stones, it makes perfect sense and how heart wrenching for them to be on opposite sides of time. So CLOSE but so far away.

So: Questions!

1. What did you like most about the mid-season finale?
Claire!

3. Do you think Claire is having trouble distancing herself from Jamie and remembering Frank?
Yes. Her connection to Frank is both diluted by time they spent apart while in 1945, but also by the differences in how they are living now. Their is an immediacy to surviving 1945 that brings Claire closer to Jaime. The need to forge bonds and alliances, and create a sense of familiarity doesn't exist for her in 1945. Claire has to create her own sense of orientation, and Jaime, from the beginning, has been part of that emotional compass for her.

4. Did you like Angus teaching Claire how to defend herself?
Loved it!!! Practical and sweet with a side bonus of snarky comments from Rupert!

6. What did you think of Frank in this episode? Did you see the relation to Black Jack Randall? Or do you see a clear difference? What about him leaving her things behind in Inverness?
I actually quite enjoyed the sense of continuity those scenes creates. A beautiful and apt touch.

8. How did you feel about Claire trying to trick Randall and his reaction initially?
Overkill. We've seen Claire trying to recall the advice that Frank gave her about maintaining cover and the basic rule was don't lie too much and don't change too much of your story. So, the more elaborate she got, the more nervous I got. She have just left everything very enigmatic and open-ended. When it all went to shit, I was not surprised.


9. How will we endure until April 4?
Hopefully, I will not lose total interest. I trust that there will be a marathon sometime around that time to rekindle my love for Outlander. In the meantime, honestly, there are plenty of shows that I love even more than Outlander that are due to premiere for the season: Walking Dead, Talking Dead, Penny Dreadful, and Sleepy Hollow. Hoorah! I'll keep myself busy, and hopefully, there will be stars in my eyes for Outlander when the time comes.
Jo Ann: Out: Lallybroch or Bustyeuxdebleu on October 3rd, 2014 12:18 am (UTC)
Walking Dead, Talking Dead, Penny Dreadful, and Sleepy Hollow. Hoorah!

Oh yes, great shows. I love them, too, as well as many others that are returning. Do you get "Vikings" where you live? It's another wonderful show and Travis Fimmel is my Viking Jamie.

Edited at 2014-10-03 12:19 am (UTC)
Jill aka Josireesanwar on October 8th, 2014 06:09 pm (UTC)
I love Vikings but I'm so into Rollo. And that doesn't come back for a while right?
Jo Ann: Out: Je suis prest fleur...yeuxdebleu on October 9th, 2014 04:55 am (UTC)
Season three will be 10 episodes, starts filming in January/February, and will air in the summer of 2015.
Jill aka Josireesanwar on October 14th, 2014 07:09 am (UTC)
Well at least we'll more than likely be through Outlander again and free to watch Vikings.
Jill aka Jo: Outlander: Claire rent epsireesanwar on October 8th, 2014 06:05 pm (UTC)
I totally agree. We've been seeing these relationships with the MacKenzie men and Claire growing since Rent and this finally felt like them declaring... "She's one of us and we mean to make sure she's protected." Brilliant and so wonderful.

It is so true. We all need to know these Scots are dangerous in their own right. But we also get to see it as tempered danger in this block of episodes. Yes, Jamie kills one of the attackers but that is because of the attack. Whereas in the beginning Claire is clearly treated well as a total stranger. So it is nice to bring back to the viewers that these men are capable of violence but it isn't necessarily all they are.

I totally agree. I love that Jamie and Claire's relationship is a slow burn even if they have to marry while it is going on. It drives me nuts when two characters clearly want to be together and we wait 7 seasons to see a relationship actual come to fruition (Bones!) but we get to see Claire and Jamie have this build that is denied because of her desire to get home only to become more visceral because she's forced to marry Jamie. It is so good and far more natural.

3. Claire is so torn. How could one not be if flung back in time and having to having to forge relationships with people just to survive and get to her goal only to realize she's building a life, a life she wanted but didn't have in 1945. So glad you see it too.

6. I loved the dual stones scene because it brings Frank and Claire together (almost). We see them seeking each other and while Claire isn't ready to let go... I feel like Frank did in that moment when Claire didn't just appear. He's already left her suitcase behind and then took a chance and went to the stones. It didn't pan out and for me this means he's going to move on. It's rather sad but beautiful.

8. Yes, I think in Claire's panic she latches onto whatever comes to mind... stay close to the truth... Oh toss in Sandringham... but clearly Frank never taught her... "Don't fall for the ploy."

9. Honestly, I don't love any show more than Outlander but I see your point.

Penny Dreadful was good but I don't think it was great.

Sleepy Hollow is so great!

I've also got Vampire Diaries, The Originals, Supernatural and Parenthood.

Still Outlander will always just be simmering below the surface for me.
firstlove02: Claire and Jamiefirstlove02 on October 1st, 2014 08:07 pm (UTC)
9. How will we endure until April 4?
Basking in the glow of the love of Jamie and Claire... through talented vids like this one...... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsy0HSRlhhk

Listening to the latest Outlandercast with Mary and Blake. http://www.outlandercast.com/ This is a great spoiler-free listen. (Can I just say, the bogg of spoilerdom is like Frank's description of Culloden Moor in the episode "Rent") Yikes! You learn to avert your eyes as you read. The spoiler-free bob-and-weave only with your eyes! But, I guess that is part of the fun. All you book readers have the luxury of 20/20 hindsight we Show-Watchers are not privileged to. However, our excitement comes from the anticipation of the unknown. That is part of what I love about being a Show-Watcher and why I identify with Blake so much. That part of the rollercoaster just about to go over that huge hill. You know a thrill is coming....so you hang on tight to that safety bar. Yay!

How do you keep the momentum going?.......

Edited at 2014-10-01 08:13 pm (UTC)
firstlove02: Claire and Jamiefirstlove02 on October 2nd, 2014 12:28 am (UTC)
Re: 9. How will we endure until April 4?
SPOILER ALERT!!!!! on the Ron Moore Podcast for this episode. It came out I think before he thought to stop it I think...

But, the idea for the Frank episode was born in the writers room. And not by him,though he is the writer for this episode. That was a cool thing to hear. So, I wonder who actually came up the idea.... Thank you to whoever that was. Yay!
lyndissa78lyndissa78 on October 6th, 2014 03:54 am (UTC)
Episode 8 Both Sides Now
1. I LOVED Jamie coming through the window at the end to save Claire :) I loved Jamie comforting Claire after she killed the Redcoat. I also loved all Jamie/Claire scenes. They really are a married couple! I also loved the music. It was awesome.

2. It was a bit rough for Claire getting almost raped twice in one episode, but I wasn't concerned. Although I haven't read the books, I new Jamie would save her. It just seems like that kind of story.

3. I think she feels an obligation to Frank. That's why she is trying to get back to him, ( Also she was just nearly raped, so I would be out of there also! ) but I think she is also recognizing that she loves Jamie. Like true love. The whole conversation with Jamie about how 'this is different' maybe proves that she didn't feel that way about Frank. She only thought she did. ???

4. Yes! They have become friends now. I loved how he hit her on the back like one of the boys and Jamie looking on all proud of his wife!

5. Maybe Mrs Graham has travelled though the stones, or one of her ancestors?? Don't know. I haven't read the book. But she knows something....

6. I think Frank has given up on Claire too easily. I wouldn't stop looking for my husband only after 6 weeks! Yep, saw Blackjack there just waiting to come out.

7. I loved the build up to this. The music was perfect and I did recognize it from the first episode. The cinematography was perfect!!

8. I thought she was smart and played him well, but I think she was a bit too cocky and missed his comeback and that's how she got caught out :( At first I was 'YES' then it quickly turned to 'NOOO' !

9. I don't know! I'm trying to stay away from the books until the end of the series. I want to take the show as it comes and then I won't have any expectations. Every book I've read that has been made into a movie is always better (even though they are good movies by themselves) but there's something about a book that you just can't convey on screen.
firstlove02: Claire and Jamiefirstlove02 on October 6th, 2014 04:40 pm (UTC)
Re: Episode 8 Both Sides Now
1. I LOVED Jamie coming through the window at the end to save Claire :) I loved Jamie comforting Claire after she killed the Redcoat. I also loved all Jamie/Claire scenes. They really are a married couple! I also loved the music. It was awesome.

The way he aimed and readied that weapon at BJR was fantastic. They are magic together. WOW! The chemistry!

2. It was a bit rough for Claire getting almost raped twice in one episode, but I wasn't concerned. Although I haven't read the books, I new Jamie would save her. It just seems like that kind of story.

I for one am scared actually. I am purposefully not reading Outlander until after the end of season 1, but I don't think for a minute that Diana Gabaldon wouldn't go there. I think she does. With the ending of episode 8, I think a much darker turn of events is coming. I actually thought that the way it was filmed that he HAD raped her and nearly raped her.

3. I think she feels an obligation to Frank. That's why she is trying to get back to him, ( Also she was just nearly raped, so I would be out of there also! ) but I think she is also recognizing that she loves Jamie. Like true love. The whole conversation with Jamie about how 'this is different' maybe proves that she didn't feel that way about Frank. She only thought she did. ???

I have no doubt that she loves Frank and it is out of love she attempts to return to him. The near rape just burst her glowie Jamie bubble. To remind her of that part of her heart that loves Frank. She is in love with Jamie because he is the right man for her. So, no matter how hard she tried to fight it. It was so evident, "this is different." Come on, this is Jamie Fraser......

4. Yes! They have become friends now. I loved how he hit her on the back like one of the boys and Jamie looking on all proud of his wife!

It is way to show how primitive the way of life is in 18th Century Scotland. Effective storytelling.
Jill aka Josireesanwar on October 14th, 2014 07:07 am (UTC)
Re: Episode 8 Both Sides Now
I for one am scared actually. I am purposefully not reading Outlander until after the end of season 1, but I don't think for a minute that Diana Gabaldon wouldn't go there. I think she does. With the ending of episode 8, I think a much darker turn of events is coming. I actually thought that the way it was filmed that he HAD raped her and nearly raped her.

I know right?! Freaked me out too. And I do believe there is no telling what Diana will do to her characters but I'm so thankful that as of this moment in the Outlander world Claire hasn't been raped... as for the future... I don't even know if I want to know. *bites nails* I can't wait to watch more though and I'm hoping that there is more development of Jamie and so much more sparks between Jamie and Claire.
firstlove02firstlove02 on October 16th, 2014 03:41 pm (UTC)
Re: Episode 8 Both Sides Now
I know right?! Freaked me out too. And I do believe there is no telling what Diana will do to her characters but I'm so thankful that as of this moment in the Outlander world Claire hasn't been raped... as for the future... I don't even know if I want to know. *bites nails* I can't wait to watch more though and I'm hoping that there is more development of Jamie and so much more sparks between Jamie and Claire.

Plus, BJR had that dagger of Claire's, first at her nipple, then at her throat upon seeing Jamie in the window. Laughing in delight at realizing who Claire had married. It was the disturbing laugh of seer sadistic perversion that made my skin crawl.

Personally, I love a good villain but, there has to be "something" in that villain in an underneath layer that is different from the outer layer. That is what makes it interesting for me. But, BJR.....peel away one layer and I FEAR it just gets worse and worse. (He'll be a cannibal boiling babies in stew pots before long!)

BJR HAS TO get what he deserves at some point. I just hope it is at the hands of Claire. That would really be interesting to see.

I just hope Claire is not pregnant at this point. For her sake, she could very well be, that kind of passion and sparks between her and Jamie makes babies for sure!
Jill aka Jo: BS: Shipsireesanwar on October 17th, 2014 10:21 pm (UTC)
Re: Episode 8 Both Sides Now
Yes, BJR will do that too you.

Ewwww okay yes, he is pure evil but I do wonder if he has any kindness in him at all. Maybe with his family or something... but of course we only know he has parents that tried to hide his accent.

Jamie or Claire at this point... I just want BJR to die really. He freaks me out and I really don't want him always behind them ready to strike. *shivers*

Yes, should could be though her discussion with Frank earlier one suggested they were trying without success. Though we don't know if that is because of Frank or her.

Plus, at this point if she is pregnant with Jamie's child, I would think going back to the future and Frank would be a no go.

OH my the possibilities.

More please!!!!
firstlove02firstlove02 on October 18th, 2014 03:44 pm (UTC)
Re: Episode 8 Both Sides Now
Yes, BJR will do that too you.Ewwww okay yes, he is pure evil but I do wonder if he has any kindness in him at all. Maybe with his family or something... but of course we only know he has parents that tried to hide his accent.Jamie or Claire at this point... I just want BJR to die really. He freaks me out and I really don't want him always behind them ready to strike. *shivers*

YES!!! I hate how menacing he is. Like a shark constantly swimming and circling them. He is a mere mortal you know....he bleeds, he can be poisoned, ambushed. Something?! Right?! If Claire and Jamie get away from BJR in the cliffhanger and BJR is not at least shot, bleeding or maimed somehow by Jamie, then, I am going to be feet stomping mad!!!

Yes, should could be though her discussion with Frank earlier one suggested they were trying without success. Though we don't know if that is because of Frank or her.

I don't think it is Claire. I think it was Frank.

Plus, at this point if she is pregnant with Jamie's child, I would think going back to the future and Frank would be a no go.

See, I know Claire is NOT thinking with her nurse brain when it comes to Jamie....And really who can blame her when she looks into those loving blue eyes....ANY woman would have her brain on hold and be a puddle of goo! It has only been a few days since their marriage. She would have no idea if she were pregnant or not. But, I don't think she stopped to consider the possibility of becoming pregnant. She is probably thinking it is on her, that she could not get pregnant. She is from 1945, not 2014. Medicine had not progressed to what we know now about fertility.

I predict she and Jamie are going to have a child together, but it will be fraught with drama and misery. I just hope there will be moments of sheer bliss for them. Like moments we saw in the Wedding Episode. But, that won't happen UNTIL they are rid of BJR!
Jill aka Jo: Outlander: Claire at the windowsireesanwar on October 22nd, 2014 09:27 pm (UTC)
Re: Episode 8 Both Sides Now
Well, let's hope we don't have to deal with him too long though I suspect he'll be the foe for the first season so I don't know if he'll be shot of knife or anything.

Probably.

I would suspect Claire believes she can't get pregnant if Frank and she were having trouble. So either she believes she can't or she's just so caught up in everything else she hasn't thought about it. But part of me thinks she's ignoring the thought because then she can just hope it happens.

We'll since DG wrote this story like it was real life... drama and misery are bound to be mixed up with the happiness and normality. We'll just have to see.
firstlove02: Claire and Jamiefirstlove02 on October 6th, 2014 04:51 pm (UTC)
Re: Episode 8 Both Sides Now
6. I think Frank has given up on Claire too easily. I wouldn't stop looking for my husband only after 6 weeks! Yep, saw Blackjack there just waiting to come out.

But, time spent is not an indicator of success or failure. Remember, Frank is military intelligence. I think it is fantastic that Frank and BJR are played by Tobias Menzies because he got to shine in this episode. The nuances of his performance as Frank just got to me. What I love is how the Randal lineage can love and hate Claire equally as deep. Storytelling genius really.

9. I don't know! I'm trying to stay away from the books until the end of the series. I want to take the show as it comes and then I won't have any expectations. Every book I've read that has been made into a movie is always better (even though they are good movies by themselves) but there's something about a book that you just can't convey on screen.



Welcome fellow Watcher!!! I am doing the same. Just mind the spoiler bog out there when traversing the internet. ;)
Jill aka Jo: Outlander: Jamie Frasersireesanwar on October 14th, 2014 07:04 am (UTC)
Re: Episode 8 Both Sides Now
1. I've always felt the relationship between Jamie and Claire felt real. It really is the beauty behind DG's story.

2. Gosh I hope so. I mean I know what is going to happen, technically but with some of the things they've changed... I was actually quite concerned.

3. I'm going to agree with you there because clearly what she has with Jamie is a far cry from what she has with Frank. I do think going back through the stones to Frank is about safety. Sure Jamie is willing to keep her safe but they are in the 18th century where that is a lot harder than say Frank in the 20th century.

4. Me too. So adorable.

5. Hmmm... interesting. I do wonder if we will hear about ancestors and other travelers at any point. That would be neat.

6. I agree. If you love someone like Frank claims to love Claire, you don't just give up. Yes, maybe you need to go home but you keep looking, you keep bugging the cops, you keep traveling up to look for clues.

7. I didn't. Good to know.

8. LOL Yeah.

9. It is true and for this book, I personally recommend waiting until the season is over. I feel spoiled on everything as I watch and you will have a lot of surprise moments if you don't read it now. But you should read it eventually because while the show is spectacular the books is spectacular +1.