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April 06 2015 @ 03:38 pm
109: "The Reckoning" Discussion Post  
As always, all book talk that doesn't pertain to the episodes we've seen is a SPOILER. Please use the SPOILER cut below.


Quick Cap:
Jamie learns Randall is the one who committed the murder he is blamed for which will do him no good in clearing his name. Willie rides up with new of Claire's capture. Jamie saves Claire from a very saddistic Black Jack Randall who is about to make good on all those threats to rape her when Jamie comes through the window. Jamie tricks BJR with an unloaded pistol and then knocks BJR out to save Claire. They flee Fort William by jumping off the outer wall into water.

On the side of the road, Jamie and Claire have a knockdown drag out but Jamie quickly realizes things are getting out of hand and tells her how scared he was to hear her scream. Claire apologizes for not listening to him and he apologizes for the things he said. When they arrive at the tavern to rendevous with Dougal, Claire realizes the men are angry with her and hopes they will forgive her. Murtagh tells Jamie Claire doesn't understand what she did and Jamie realizes he'd going to have to meet out justice 18th century style. Jamie joins Claire upstairs where Jamie is supposed to give her a good swatting but she fights like the dickens and even kicks him in the face BUTT in the end she gets her swats... and Jamie realizes that is going to put a wrench in happily ever after.

Back and Leoch Jamie gets in the middle of Castle politics when Colum takes the gold meant for the Jacobites effectively make the clan divide. Colum takes Jamie's advice and gives the gold to Dougal while bidding his time about what side to take in the Jacobite Cause. And if that wasn't rocky enough, Laoghaire is rather upset at Jamie's wedded status and apparently leaves a ill omen under Jamie and Claire's bed. But Jamie hasn't been sleeping in that bed with a rather angry Claire so to remedy that he makes her a pledge and she rocks his world... but not in bed... on the floor.

Discussion Points:

  1. Let's just get too it. What did you think of Claire's punishment?

  2. Talk about a nasty fight! What did you think of Claire's POV and Jamie's POV in that fight?

  3. Did you like that the episode was from Jamie's POV?

  4. Were you stunned that Dougal just came out and said he fathered Hamish?

  5. What did you think of Jamie's influence in the political climate of the McKenzie Clan?

  6. What did you think of Laoghaire (Leery) in this episode? The ill omen under the bed?

Feel free to pose anything else you wish to discuss from this episode or previous episodes. No spoilers please!

Outlander 109: The Reckoning Playlist:
Any behind the scenes footage will be added to this playlist. So far I only have trailers.



Next Week On Outlander:


Spread The Conversation by reposting to your journal and get other fans involved.
 
 
 
Jo Ann: Out: Dougalyeuxdebleu on April 6th, 2015 11:38 pm (UTC)
What did you think of Claire's punishment?
I thought it was perfectly fitting for the customs of the time.

What did you think of Claire's POV and Jamie's POV in that fight?
I thought they both made good points based on Claire being a
20th century woman and Jamie being an 18th century man.

Did you like that the episode was from Jamie's POV?
Yes, very much.

Were you stunned that Dougal just came out and said he fathered Hamish?
Yes, because I think his mouth got ahead of the brain. In a
calmer situation, I don't think he would have ever said that.

What did you think of Jamie's influence in the political climate of the McKenzie Clan?
I thought he showed true brilliance as a mediator, just as he walked
a fine line at the oath taking.

What did you think of Laoghaire (Leery) in this episode?
Honestly, I almost felt sorry for her. I don't think Jamie realized
how she felt and was caught off guard. Had that not been the case,
I think he would have told Laoghaire that he loved Claire. Instead,
he left her thinking it was a loveless arranged marriage. Big
mistake, Jamie boy.



Edited at 2015-04-06 11:39 pm (UTC)
wings128: Outlander!logowings128 on April 7th, 2015 12:10 am (UTC)
I thought it was perfectly fitting for the customs of the time.
LOL! Amen, sister! Ummmm...I should've just written that too. *hides* ;)
Jill aka Jo: Outlander: Logosireesanwar on April 7th, 2015 11:44 pm (UTC)
Me too. I really think Claire's punishment is justified.

And as for their fight it was clearly a meeting of two totally different minds and one thing that Jamie won't understand until he knows the big secret.

I was stunned Dougal said he was Hamish's father but he seemed hotheaded at the time like you said and I think he knows both Ned and Jamie kind of guessed.

I think Jamie did good as a mediator too but I also found it odd that Colum even considered him a option as an heir because I thought both Colum and Dougal didn't want that.

Oh yes. I the L got a little mislead in this episode and wow what a forward girl for her times coming to Jamie in the 18th century equivelant of naked under her cloak. WOW
raktajinos: P&Praktajinos on April 8th, 2015 06:07 am (UTC)
I don't understand how Claire's punishment is justified? Did she endanger them, yup. Should there be consequences, yup....but she's an adult. You don't spank an adult. She's capable of understanding the risk she put them all in and she won't do it again. You spank a child, not a grown adult.
Jill aka Josireesanwar on April 8th, 2015 10:17 pm (UTC)
See I think the punishment for a woman back then would have been similar to an adult. I mean we've seen how a man takes a punishment what will Jamie getting punched. They aren't doing that to a woman which shows they know the difference in abuse.

Jamie even says that a man could be flogged or worse.

There was going to be a punishment no matter what. So the question is what is the punishment and frankly I would have picked the spanking over any other options of the time.
wings128: Outlander!wallwings128 on April 7th, 2015 12:08 am (UTC)
Let's just get too it. What did you think of Claire's punishment?
*takes a breath* Right.
- This is filmed in the time period of the 1700s and this is the way things were in that time period. It is ridiculous to place moral guidelines and righteous indignation on an event that was common place in that era. We all agree that it is not appropriate form of punishment, sets women as objects and property rather than people with their own minds and the right to be treated as equals, etc etc. But this is the story, this is the world into which Claire has fallen, this the world that Jamie has been raised in, the example he's been shown, not just by his father, but society at large. In this era, this was every day life for some women.

This scene, both in the book, and the show, is an important and pivotal moment in Jamie and Claire's relationship and demonstrates so viscerally the difference between their timezones, upbringings, expectations, realizations, and the path they need to take to move forward and ultimate become closer and understand each other more fully.

We should feel uncomfortable, embarrassed, angry, and have our eyes opened, because it reminds us of how far we have come. How much the women before us have gone through so that we can have the lives we do.

It is important to keep context. Should it have been excluded simply because it is a woman being beaten, when we see Jamie having his back flayed for endless minutes in sickeningly graphic detail? No. It should not. It adheres to the integrity of Diana's story, and to the characters, and the time in which they are immersed.

It was fantastically acted, lit, and filmed. An excellent job all round and I absolutely felt uncomfortable, just as I did with the flogging. There is no denying that we were in the eighteenth century. And it's a case of the old saying "blessed are those who do not see", for knowing that Claire gets spanked and actually seeing the reality on screen, is realising it's so very much more than three insignificant words.

Talk about a nasty fight! What did you think of Claire's POV and Jamie's POV in that fight?
This show doesn't cut corners. It doesn't beautify what is ugly, what is heartbreaking, what keeps you on the edge of your seat. Claire's swearing hit out of the blue with the shock value they deserved for both Jamie and the audience I think. If this was one of Cait's audition scenes, then there could be no doubt of her getting the role. Such sparks and chemistry! A dance, a tangle of present and 18th century beliefs, love and lust, hope and expectation, disappointment and realisation, fighting it out for supremacy. We're really getting down to the bones of what a marriage is and will be. I liked it very much.

Continued in part two because LJ doesn't like long replies :/

Jill aka Jo: Hug: Stock drawing on fingerssireesanwar on April 7th, 2015 11:50 pm (UTC)
I think so too. It perfectly displays the differences between 1743 and 1945. And I'm glad you just aren't saying it is abuse like so many others. It isn't the same because in context it is being punished from a crime against Clan. It isn't about Jamie just wanting to hurt her.

It is shocking but in some regards I almost wish there were still punishments that were similar... they hurt but weren't permanent. I'm not saying we need to go around spanking men and women but some people just seem to need something. *wink*

On an off point, I actually think this is what people think of when they think of spanking in general and I for one don't think that is actually the case.


I agree. It really does cut to the heart of it, no? I mean they were tiptoeing around each other before. Just being polite and nice and now they are ripping each other opened to see if they could work. They are being honest and just saying what they think hoping they can get the honesty out of the way and really feel more comfortable with each other. I loved it.
wings128: Outlander!logowings128 on April 8th, 2015 09:08 am (UTC)
1. Exactly.

4. All praise to the production crew of this show, and having Diana so intimately involved with the creation is definitely playing a role in lifting this relationship from the page. Visceral, vibrant, passionate, and real. Can't wait to see the rest of the eps. :)
Jill aka Josireesanwar on April 8th, 2015 10:14 pm (UTC)
I know. Is it Saturday already? I really want to watch the show now!
raktajinosraktajinos on April 8th, 2015 05:37 am (UTC)
I'm usually *always* against the gendered-violence as "historical" argument - I won't get into it here, but the short of it is that I think that excuse is just an excuse.

However, I did think that this episode handled it really honestly and showed that that behaviour was actual a result of the society in which Jaime was raised. He wasn't doing it out of cruelty or to be vicious, he was doing it because he was taught it was a suitable punishment for the crime. So I was actually okay with it's inclusion as a story element.
wings128: Outlander!logowings128 on April 8th, 2015 07:22 am (UTC)
I did think that this episode handled it really honestly and showed that that behaviour was actual a result of the society in which Jaime was raised. He wasn't doing it out of cruelty or to be vicious, he was doing it because he was taught it was a suitable punishment for the crime.
This is a shortened version of what I said above.
Jill aka Jo: Movie: Pascal upsidedownsireesanwar on April 8th, 2015 10:19 pm (UTC)
I only think gender came into the thought process when choosing the type of punishment. Anyone would have been punished for what Claire did but Claire was given, what they consider, a light punishment.

But honestly, even now I'd rather get Claire's punishment then jail time or a fine nowadays.
wings128: Outlander!wallwings128 on April 7th, 2015 12:09 am (UTC)
Part two...

Did you like that the episode was from Jamie's POV?
I loved it. This marriage thing is new to him too, and to hear him share his thoughts on that was great. When he first spoke in the voice-over I was surprised and excited, then settled down as if he was telling a story from the comfort of his rocking chair decades later :)

Were you stunned that Dougal just came out and said he fathered Hamish?
Though he never actually said the words, I don't think I was surprised. It showed just how angry he was. His head full of what he sees as betrayal by the brother he's spent his life protecting with no hope for personal advancement or the opportunity to be a father to his son.

I thought the moment when Claire realises the situation with young Hamish was a bit weak and would only have been caught by the viewers who'd read the books. So I think it was helpful to toss it out there in the heat of battle as it were.

What did you think of Jamie's influence in the political climate of the McKenzie Clan?
Meh. I found that whole business between him and Colum boring to be honest. I expected Jamie to stand up for his oath-taking choices even if they both knew what they were. I think Jamie needed to voice it all the same. I don't think it forwarded or clarified anything for the story.

What did you think of Laoghaire (Leery) in this episode? The ill omen under the bed?
Well, she's a character that I love to hate, but I think she started off too simpering and air-headed, so I was pleased to see some...gumption(?) She sees Jamie as hers and to her, her actions were a way to get him. A way that must have worked for someone somewhere in history, lol. Because the books are mostly in Claire's voice, we wouldn't've known this side of things anyway; but because we switched to Jamie's PoV here I think it worked. To see Laoghaire toss in all her chips on the riverside seduction and have it fail, gives us more of an insight to her state of mind and a deeper believeability of her motivation for a specific upcoming event.
Jill aka Jo: Misc: Gerard Butlersireesanwar on April 7th, 2015 11:57 pm (UTC)
I did think that as well but I also think maybe it was just supposed to be after this part of the story was resolved. Still I loved that we got a glimpse at if from Jamie's perspective because then we are seeing he's sees this as what is supposed to happen and that it has caused him strife in his marriage. He's now pondering what to do to fix everything and make a marriage that works. Claire is totally foreign to him in her customs and beliefs so it worked well.


I actually felt like, not only was Dougal angry enough to say it, but he was throwing it in Colum's face to embarrass him because of his anger. But I'm still surprised he dragged that out.


I liked that it showed Jamie's laird abilities but I was rather shocked they implied Colum thought him a viable candidate for laird of MacKenzie. That just doesn't really flow for the reasoning behind things with some of Colum's actions but it would jive with what we will know of Dougal's actions.


I felt a little bad for Laoghaire but at the same time, I felt like she doesn't see the forest for the trees. Jamie has given her some mixed signals but then he's ignored her. And while she may have been confused... what a hussy to go after a married man!
wings128: Outlander!logowings128 on April 8th, 2015 09:22 am (UTC)
Yes, they may have married at Dougal's command, but Jamie's seen his parent's marriage, known his mother to be of strong will, and I'm wondering if that image is with him as he considers his and Claire's road ahead. Thoughts of what his father might have felt at the start of what must seem an arduous journey with no road markers to keep him on track, lol.

I do indeed feel for Laoghaire, and I think that's a little like the way this show made us feel for Frank when he heard Claire screaming for him through the stones. These are characters we've decided to hate, and we know their future deeds, and yet here we are learning a new understanding for who they really are, and how that drives their actions.
Jill aka Jo: Outlander: Nurse Clairesireesanwar on April 8th, 2015 10:11 pm (UTC)
Exactly.

For me, at this point, I feel badly for Frank even if I don't want him with Claire. But I still dislike L a lot. Not only is she throwing her self at a married man but then she's going all territorial on Claire when Claire is married to Jamie. And Jamie told her he wouldn't break her vows. Not okay L.
wings128: Outlander!logowings128 on April 8th, 2015 11:45 pm (UTC)
I agree completely with your thoughts on L, but I am enjoying the expansion of her PoV that we miss in the books because they're mainly Claire's PoV. I like complexity, lol.
Jill aka Josireesanwar on April 8th, 2015 11:50 pm (UTC)
Oh me too. Because in the books we are thinking... she's crazy but here we actually get to see Jamie kind of lead her on. I mean sure he ignored her when she was sitting with him and Claire but then the kissing and the punishment. It is just a different context here and it seems more like Jamie made some bad decisions.
wings128: Outlander!logowings128 on April 8th, 2015 11:54 pm (UTC)
As a young man of his age is wont to do on occasion ;)
Jill aka Jo: Outlander: Jamie Frasersireesanwar on April 8th, 2015 11:56 pm (UTC)
True story.

Oh Jamie. But on the flip side... who can honestly blame L? The man is hot.
wings128: Outlander!Jamie-whiteshirtwings128 on April 8th, 2015 11:59 pm (UTC)
*nods wisely* Aye, that he is, that he is.
Elf Lady: Jamie & Claireelflady_2001 on April 7th, 2015 08:14 pm (UTC)
What did you think of Claire's punishment?
I remember reading that in the book and unlike many, didn't see (in context of the times of course) anything wrong with the punishment since she endangered all of them and it was the same in episode 109. My old fashioned parents firmly believed in corporal punishment in order to get the point across, so I get it.

Talk about a nasty fight! What did you think of Claire's POV and Jamie's POV in that fight? In the show, it was done very well with just the right mix of indignation/anger on Claire's part and resignation/slight amusement on Jamie's. The music helped "lighten" it as well. I found myself laughing at one point. Claire really got him with that kick!

Did you like that the episode was from Jamie's POV? Absolutely. I thought it was a nice way to show what he was thinking and the decisions he had to make (right or wrong). Had we been in Claire's head (as in the book), this scene might have really caused quite an uproar from the general viewing public.

Were you stunned that Dougal just came out and said he fathered Hamish? Well...he implied it with "I even ensured your bloodline", we inferred he meant Hamish. :) But yes, I was surprised. It was the elephant in the room/Castle Leoch.

What did you think of Jamie's influence in the political climate of the McKenzie Clan? I think it showed how he knows how people think/work. He would have been an excellent Laird had he wished it and things would likely have been different for Clan McKenzie...

What did you think of Laoghaire (Leery) in this episode? The ill omen under the bed? I've always wanted to slap book Laoghaire for being so clueless. But lovelorn teens are often clueless. Jamie is a bit clueless here as well and the scene at the stream made me want to jump through the screen and push them apart. As they got closer and closer, I literally cried "don't do it!" And then the ill omen, well we know where that's leading...
Jill aka Jo: Stock: eyelashessireesanwar on April 8th, 2015 12:04 am (UTC)
Mine too. And you know even though as a kid I hated being spanked. It never hurt for more than a few minutes and I got the point. I was a good kid and I think I became a good adult. I'm not against spankings.... and in this case it is a sign of the times and totally justified.

I mean I remember reading this and thinking that she put them in terrible danger to save her but then they tell her that. And while I hadn't thought of it at the time of reading... I've thought about this for other books when characters get off scott free and I think... they would have been punished in some manner.


Oh yes. I loved that Claire wasn't all... Fine I'll just get spanked. LOL I loved that she kicked him. And I think Jamie realized just what Claire was made of.


Exactly. I love that we get to hear Jamie's confusion that Claire didn't get it.


It was shocking. Dougal has to be careful what he says. But I'm sure the entire clan knows now.


I think so too. I also think we are seeing a glimpse of the Jamie to come... maybe. I mean he's this defunct laird right? So one would assume that it is going to be in his future or something to the like. I also think it is great because we see Jamie is a man who thinks and leads.


I did too. I screamed at the screen... NOOOO. Jamie don't! But then he was the Jamie we love in the end. But I was shocked by L. I mean she did the 18th century version of being naked under a coat. Whoa!
Kaylee Winchester: Outlander The Frasersroguem on April 11th, 2015 02:03 pm (UTC)
A little late to the party, but here goes...

Let's just get too it. What did you think of Claire's punishment?
I feel they did a good job with it, somehow it was almost humorous. I know it was a common punishment at the time, so it wasn't all that shocking.
I did forgive him a little quicker in the show than I did in the book though.

Talk about a nasty fight! What did you think of Claire's POV and Jamie's POV in that fight?
I just felt it was well done, and when Claire realized how scared Jamie had been. The mind runs away on crazy paths when you're that scared.

Did you like that the episode was from Jamie's POV?
I did, but at the same time I felt like that was another way for them to skip over stuff that was actually in the book. Like that talk Jamie and Claire have on the road, where she finally forgives him for the spanking. I missed that.
I would have rather had that, including Claire threatening him with the knife than the make up scene they had in the room. The sex paired with her holding a knife to his throat felt like it was a little to much for me.

Were you stunned that Dougal just came out and said he fathered Hamish?
Yes, and no matter how angry it was it felt a little OOC for me.

What did you think of Jamie's influence in the political climate of the McKenzie Clan? It was nice to see the Laird side of Jamie, but at the same time those parts kind of bored me. And as I mentioned before I would rather have seen things actually from the book than all of that.

What did you think of Laoghaire (Leery) in this episode? The ill omen under the bed? I do feel sorry for her, and I do feel Jamie should have been more honest with her about being happy with Claire.
I don't think they say it was Laoghaire who planted the ill omen in the book, and I don't feel they should have said it in the show either.


All in all I was very happy to have the show back, but felt maybe they should have stayed a little closer to the book upon its return.
Jill aka Jo: Movie: Captain America Not Freesireesanwar on April 15th, 2015 10:28 pm (UTC)
I did forgive him a little quicker in the show than I did in the book though.
LOL. I didn't feel the need to forgive him in the books but I did feel the need for him to kind of pay court to her... make her feel better about what happened which he did. Still I agree they did a fine job of it in the show. I think them adding to her fighting him and kicking him worked really well.

I just felt it was well done, and when Claire realized how scared Jamie had been. The mind runs away on crazy paths when you're that scared.
I liked that too. One minute Claire is so mad and willing to fight Jamie on everything and the next she realizes he was terrified for her and that makes her realize fighting him isn't really the way to deal with all of it. They needed to communicate.

I did, but at the same time I felt like that was another way for them to skip over stuff that was actually in the book. Like that talk Jamie and Claire have on the road, where she finally forgives him for the spanking. I missed that.
I would have rather had that, including Claire threatening him with the knife than the make up scene they had in the room. The sex paired with her holding a knife to his throat felt like it was a little to much for me.

I actually have to agree. I liked the version from the book and it all did seem like a lot in that scene. But I did like hearing Jamie's POV on the punishment and how things were in that time. I think it really gave us perspective on the punishment and the times. But I actually kind of miss Claire's POV in this.

Yes, and no matter how angry it was it felt a little OOC for me.
YEs! Okay so I feel like they are going off the rails with Colum and Dougal. Maybe there is a reason but I'm not loving it. Colum and Dougal were more of one mind than this. I don't think Dougal would have ever blurted out Hamish's paternity.

I don't think they say it was Laoghaire who planted the ill omen in the book, and I don't feel they should have said it in the show either.
I think Jamie should have been more clear with her but I think at this time we aren't supposed to know he loves Claire. I think they want viewers to doubt Jamie and Claire just a little.

I think it the book it isn't clear until the thieves hole that Laoghaire planted the ill wish but I'm pretty sure it was her. I just don't think Jamie knew that until... well a long time later.

I wish they'd say a little closer to the book but I love the story nonetheless.