?

Log in

No account? Create an account
 
 
April 19 2015 @ 06:28 pm
111: "The Devil's Mark" Discussion Post  
As always, all book talk that doesn't pertain to the episodes we've seen is a SPOILER. Please use the SPOILER cut below.



Quick Cap:
Geillis and Claire are tried as witches with many witnesses in the form of Geillis’s maid, the woman who left her baby for the faeries, Laoghaire and Father Bain. Ned doesn’t think he can get them off but it is possible one could renounce the other. Claire is unwilling to do this but Geillis repays Claire’s friendship by confessing to bewitching Claire. Geillis puts on a grand show while Jamie flees with Claire but not before Claire realizes Geillis is also from the future.

Jamie asks Claire if she is indeed a witch because of the mark Geillis claimed was the devil’s mark. Claire tells him it is a vaccination scar and her tale of being from the futre. Jamie realizes Claire has been trying to get back to Frank this whole time and takes her to the Stones while Claire thinks they are on their way to Lallybroch.

At the stones, Claire makes the deciscion to stay with Jamie and finds him at the camp below the Stones. She asks that he take her home to Lallybroch.

Discussion Points:

  1. Do you think Geillis truly loves Dougal?

  2. What did you think of Laoghaire’s court performance?

  3. How brilliant was Ned in this episode?

  4. Did you notice as they were carrying Geillis out to the Pior that the Examiners were calling for them to stop because she is with child? Do you think that will make a difference?

  5. What did you make of Geillis expression when Claire quoted Nathan Hale?

  6. What did you think of Geillis’s decision to confess to being a witch to save Claire?

  7. What did you think of Jamie wounded heart at realizing he should take Claire to the Stones so she could return to Frank and her time?

  8. Any thoughts on Claire’s decision to stay?



My other questions is where are you all? No one wanted to discuss the last episode? *sad face*
Copy Questions to Answer...


Feel free to pose anything else you wish to discuss from this episode or previous episodes. No spoilers please!

Noteworthy:
Poll #2008458 How wll is the season doing?

Do you think the show is living up to expectations?

Yes
8(100.0%)
No
0(0.0%)

How would you rate The Devil's Mark?

5-Excellect
6(66.7%)
4-Good
3(33.3%)
3-Okay
0(0.0%)
2-Didn't like it much.
0(0.0%)
1-Hate it.
0(0.0%)


Holy Cow:


I hope everyone is enjoying the discussions. You opinions are always welcome and remember just because we disagree doesn't mean we don't love talking about it!

Amazon seems to already be on the Outlander band wagon. You can go HERE to see information on the second half of the season as they already have it listed for pre-orders.

Walker's Shortbeard is also giving away a trip to Scotland in honor of Outlander. You can check it out and enter HERE.

And McClelland's Single Malt Whiskey is giving away a Whisky tour of Scotland HERE.

Also, there is some talk about casting for the second season. The talk is about specific characters and I hope to post that later but should you like to know more now you can head over to our Facebook Page!

Oh and this is noteworthy too:
Outlander 111: The Devil's Mark
Any behind the scenes footage will be added to this playlist.


Next Week On Outlander:


Spread The Conversation by reposting to your journal and get other fans involved.
 
 
 
firstlove02firstlove02 on April 20th, 2015 09:15 am (UTC)
Discussion Episode 11

I loved this episode. Being a show watcher only, it really was so enjoyable to watch. I love being unspoiled for what is to come and seeing it as it is presented. The spoilers are so tempting, but there is such a satisfaction of genuine surprise when the events are shocking, like the Geillis reveal!!!
I have rewatched the last 20 minutes over and over and goodness me, when Sam all those months ago, talked about the second season, I see now why he loved episodes 10 and 11. Me too, Sam.

I do think this episode merits repeat viewings because I couldn't really appreciate the starling metaphor until seeing it again. Kudos to Toni, the writer of this episode and of course Ron Moore for this episode. So much happened and I found myself going through so many emotions and just sobbing when Geillis saves Claire at the end of the trial. The primitiveness of the people of those times. To burn someone alive and a pregnant woman at that.

I never liked Geillis from the moment she appeared and thought she was not to be trusted, conniving and just too nosy about Claire. Her final sacrifice just shows what she is made of. A time traveler and for the first time we get to see she is there on purpose to change history. WOW!!!
Jill aka Jo: Outlander: Beauchampsireesanwar on April 21st, 2015 12:30 am (UTC)
Re: Discussion Episode 11
Remember this isn't the second season but the Season 1b.

And Sam was right. Granted I didn't love 10 nearly as much but I really enjoyed this episode. I mean wow... just wow.

I didn't get to watch it on Saturday but watched it three times on Sunday. I think I'll watch it again before the next episode. It is just too good and the more you watch... the more you notice.

You know, I have to admit, I never loved Geillis in the book but in this show she's just so good and this is the first time I've really really liked her because she looked around at what was happening and at Claire's willingness to die with her and said, "I can save my friend." That made me really like her.

I know... big reveal right! I actually remember that revelation in the book and sitting there with the book and my mind was blown. I was like... Diana Gabaldon you are a mad genius!
firstlove02firstlove02 on April 20th, 2015 09:17 am (UTC)
Okay for the questions:
Do you think Geillis truly loves Dougal?
I think she does. She and Dougal share a common passion and their love comes out of that. It is their foundation that everything comes from. We already know that she could have prevented her pregnancy, but she didn't. She really wanted to build a life with him.

What did you think of Laoghaire’s court performance?
I truly, truly, hate her. She is bitter, vengeful, cruel. Horrid person. The problem is, she doesn't think what she is doing is wrong. I am glad I had no future knowledge of her. It would have clouded her very first appearance. Fresh eyes are great in these instances.

How brilliant was Ned in this episode?
I loved his legal maneuvering and knowing only one of them could be saved. His valiant attempt to protect Claire with his pistol was so great of Ned there in the end. It gave Jamie time to arrive from the distance he must have traveled to get back. Great job Ned!

Did you notice as they were carrying Geillis out to the Pior that the Examiners were calling for them to stop because she is with child? Do you think that will make a difference?

I didn't make out his words in the chaos of the moment, but I think that was what Geillis was trying to do. That explains the looks she gave to the court as she was being carried out. But, those people driven from fear and loss and ignorance. Goodness, Father Bain is their priest. Remember what Jamie told Claire by the tree with the changeling baby. What a great foreshadow that was.



Edited at 2015-04-20 09:20 am (UTC)
Jill aka Josireesanwar on April 21st, 2015 12:42 am (UTC)
Re: Okay for the questions:
I think she does. She and Dougal share a common passion and their love comes out of that. It is their foundation that everything comes from. We already know that she could have prevented her pregnancy, but she didn't. She really wanted to build a life with him.
See and I would have gone into this thinking she totally doesn't... it is all about the power but here you just see it in her face when she realizes Dougal can't save her. I agree. I think she really wanted that life with him.

I truly, truly, hate her. She is bitter, vengeful, cruel. Horrid person. The problem is, she doesn't think what she is doing is wrong. I am glad I had no future knowledge of her. It would have clouded her very first appearance. Fresh eyes are great in these instances.
You are voicing exactly what every book fan around the world thought. I mean to this extent she wasn't a player in these proceedings but she orchestrated things and she was a royal bitch! I hate her too.

But what I liked most about the TV character is that while she's testifying it is so clear to me she is manipulating everyone or she's totally crazy!

I loved his legal maneuvering and knowing only one of them could be saved. His valiant attempt to protect Claire with his pistol was so great of Ned there in the end. It gave Jamie time to arrive from the distance he must have traveled to get back. Great job Ned!
Part of me wonders if Ned did all of that to buy time? I mean who is to say that is what happened but that last ditch effort... gosh I love Ned. I fear we won't see much of him what with the title of the next episode.

I didn't make out his words in the chaos of the moment, but I think that was what Geillis was trying to do. That explains the looks she gave to the court as she was being carried out. But, those people driven from fear and loss and ignorance. Goodness, Father Bain is their priest. Remember what Jamie told Claire by the tree with the changeling baby. What a great foreshadow that was.
Oh my gosh when Father Bain turned and smiled at Geillis and Claire, sadistic bastard!

Yes, I think Geillis was hoping she'd get some reprieve but wow to the mob mentality. One would like to think we've matured as a people but that mentality still exists and it is so sad.

Of course, Geillis was spouting that her baby was the spawn of Satan and he'd damn them all. Pretty terrifying claims.

You know another aspect of that baby scene, besides the foreshadowing here, is that it clearly shows Claire's desire for a baby of her own. I mean there was all the talk about how it hadn't happened for her and Frank but not only was Claire just a human mourning a baby but a woman who wanted a baby... which I think leds into that life she was telling us she wanted.... at least that is how I took it.

Gosh I love this show!
firstlove02firstlove02 on April 20th, 2015 09:18 am (UTC)
continued....
What did you make of Geillis expression when Claire quoted Nathan Hale?

It goes hand and hand with her question to Claire of why she is there. Her suspicions of Claire as a time traveler were confirmed. But, she knew that. So, the intent of Claire's presence was what she needed. My heart sank for her as she tells herself it was all for nothing. A modern woman, Geillis, to die in such a brutal way with her unborn child. I think Father Bain and those men on the court are going to get killed by Dougal. They burned alive his unborn child and the woman he loves. His previous castle rampage is going to be nothing compared to when he finds this out!!!

What did you think of Geillis’s decision to confess to being a witch to save Claire?
I really felt she had redeemed herself in my eyes, since I didn't like her from the get go. I feel badly for disliking her so much. She was Claire's salvation. I think she tells Claire that it is possible to return to the future because Claire is there on accident. Knowing that one of them was going to burn, I think she felt that since Claire had not come on purpose, at least, Claire could get back to her own time somehow. I loved the flow of words in this episode. Not alot of extra words to say the same thing. Just a few that relate everything. Like, 1968 and showing the vaccine mark. I still have mine.

What did you think of Jamie wounded heart at realizing he should take Claire to the Stones so she could return to Frank and her time?

I have to say, that the last 20 minutes of this episode was so great and that is because of Cait and especially Sam. What I love about his portrayal of Jamie is when Jamie is thinking. I love seeing the wheels turning in his head as he ponders what to say, or is figuring out what his next move will be. I can attest that is a Sam quality. I asked him a question once and watched the wheels turn in her head before he answered. It is exactly what you saw in this episode. He was truly fantastic in this episode. He shows so much emotion in the faintest facial expressions. I think he had made his decision to return Claire to the stones as he held her and comforted her in the glen. He talked of Lallybroch the whole time he was riding with Claire because not only does he love the place, but, he had to make Claire believe that is where she was going. It took them days to get there. I guess Claire is not so good with landmarks or direction as to not recognize anything familiar until she saw the stones.

I love the two rings on Claire. I love how they have been portrayed since the Wedding Episode. If you keep track of when Frank's ring is in camera it is quite intentional the camera time that plain gold band gets. I love how Jamie repeatedly kissed Claire's hand with his ring on it. The layer to Jamie that this episode gives is just so wonderful.

Claire's decision, WOW what a decision to have to make. Jamie makes all the sound arguments for her returning to her own time. I love that came from Jamie. I love the words in this episode. Succinct, meaningful, emotive. I love that. Thank you Diana and Toni, the writer for this episode.

Jamie really meets Claire at her own level, he is the better match for her and she comes to a decision about that. You see it in her face, I love that once the decision was made, that was it. She acted on it. Everyone knows it would be Jamie, but I love how the show lead you to feel like she was returning through the stones. The scream I think I heard was from the thousands of book readers thinking she wasn't choosing Jamie. I love that they showed that it took her a long time to really think about the two men she loved.

Great episode. Sam really shines in this one! Episode 10 as well.





Edited at 2015-04-20 07:20 pm (UTC)
Jill aka Jo: JtV: Shockedsireesanwar on April 21st, 2015 12:57 am (UTC)
Re: continued....
I think Father Bain and those men on the court are going to get killed by Dougal. They burned alive his unborn child and the woman he loves. His previous castle rampage is going to be nothing compared to when he finds this out!!!
It is so sad. I really hope we see Dougal soon because I want to know what he's thinking and feeling.

I have to think Geillis was like... oh shit... Claire is from the future.

I really felt she had redeemed herself in my eyes, since I didn't like her from the get go. I feel badly for disliking her so much. She was Claire's salvation. I think she tells Claire that it is possible to return to the future because Claire is there on accident. Knowing that one of them was going to burn, I think she felt that since Claire had not come on purpose, at least, Claire could get back to her own time somehow. I loved the flow of words in this episode. Not alot of extra words to say the same thing. Just a few that relate everything. Like, 1968 and showing the vaccine mark. I still have mine.
What I loved about the mark is that Jamie was confused knowing Claire had one... he wanted to know if she is a witch too.

Yep. This totally redeemed Geillis in my eyes. I remember from the beginning not trusting her... all her pushing.

He was truly fantastic in this episode. He shows so much emotion in the faintest facial expressions. I think he had made his decision to return Claire to the stones as he held her and comforted her in the glen. He talked of Lallybroch the whole time he was riding with Claire because not only does he love the place, but, he had to make Claire believe that is where she was going. It took them days to get there. I guess Claire is not so good with landmarks or direction as to not recognize anything familiar until she saw the stones.
I totally agree. Jamie knew while comforting her that the right thing would be to give her the opportunity to go back to her time. And I do agree he was talking about Lallybroch to make her believe that was where they were going but I also think he was hoping it would make her want to stay with him or even make her believe, should she go, that he was having a good life.

I love the two rings on Claire. I love how they have been portrayed since the Wedding Episode. If you keep track of when Frank's ring is in camera it is quite intentional the camera time that plain gold band gets. I love how Jamie repeatedly kissed Claire's hand with his ring on it. The layer to Jamie that this episode gives is just so wonderful.
I hadn't noticed that... I'll watch for it. I do love that Jamie kisses that hand. Sometimes I think he's constantly thanking her for being his wife.

Claire's decision, WOW what a decision to have to make. Jamie makes all the sound arguments for her returning to her own time. I love that came from Jamie. I love the words in this episode. Succinct, meaningful, emotive. I love that. Thank you Diana and Toni, the writer for this episode.
It is so true. And to have Jamie tell her there was nothing but violence for her in that time. I was stunned. It was moving. And Claire making that decision... the only part I didn't like is that the episode ended with this. I want more NOW!

Jamie really meets Claire at her own level, he is the better match for her and she comes to a decision about that. You see it in her face, I love that once the decision was made, that was it. She acted on it...
That is what, I think, fans around the world love about these two. Jamie and Claire compliment each other. What one might lack the other makes up for. They are like a puzzle of two pieces and they fit perfectly together. And what is a marvel is how we see Jamie adapting in each episode to really feel out his relationship with Claire. I mean it isn't like she's make all the decisions but clearly he's a more astute man than most of his ilk.

I think it was only TV fans screaming at the screen because in the book Claire does this. She sits at the stones and she decides to walk towards the stones and see if she wants to touch them and ends up turning and running back to find Jamie because by then she knows. So we knew it was going to happen but it is powerful to see!
Jo Ann: Out: Jamie lying in bed asleepyeuxdebleu on April 21st, 2015 02:48 am (UTC)
Do you think Geillis truly loves Dougal?

Yes.

What did you think of Laoghaire’s court performance?

She truly feels she's been wronged and that Jamie is meant to be with her. I understand her. And I think Nell Hudson is a wonderful actress.

How brilliant was Ned in this episode?

He was magnificent.

Did you notice as they were carrying Geillis out to the Pior that the Examiners were calling for them to stop because she is with child? Do you think that will make a difference?

[Spoiler (click to open)]In a book of short stories by Diana titled "A Trail of Fire," Roger goes through the stones looking for his son who he thinks has been kidnapped and taken back in time. There he meets a man who is the son of Geillis and Dougal. She was not burned because she was pregnant. The story does say whether or not she ended up with Dougal.

What did you make of Geillis expression when Claire quoted Nathan Hale?

She looked as if she recognized it, but I found it curious that either of them would know this quote by an American patriot.

What did you think of Geillis’s decision to confess to being a witch to save Claire?

I think Geillis did it for two reasons: 1) to save Claire and 2) because she knew she (Geillis) wasn't going to make a difference to history after all. Remember she said, "So it's all for nothing." She realized that in spite of steering money to the Jacobite cause, the bonny prince would never be king. Her effort amounted to nothing.

What did you think of Jamie wounded heart at realizing he should take Claire to the Stones so she could return to Frank and her time?

Very moving, both in the book and film. I missed that they didn't show Claire's hand actually going through the stone and Jamie pulling her back. It's easier for him to believe her when he saw that with his own eyes.

Any thoughts on Claire’s decision to stay?

A no brainer if there ever was one. Who would you choose, Frank or Jamie? I'm glad hot baths didn't win. LOL
Jill aka Jo: Outlander: Claire by the carsireesanwar on April 22nd, 2015 08:42 pm (UTC)
...[Spoiler (click to open)]I know as book fans we know but I'm going at this like I haven't seen it and was kind of gearing that questions to those who don't know Geillis is of the future or not dead and all about Roger... ...

She looked as if she recognized it, but I found it curious that either of them would know this quote by an American patriot.
I thought that myself but this was a man who said that supposedly as the English hung him so maybe it is recognizable to them....

"So it's all for nothing." She realized that in spite of steering money to the Jacobite cause, the bonny prince would never be king. Her effort amounted to nothing.
See and I thought she meant if she wasn't dying for Claire to continue the work it would be for nothing... but maybe not.

Very moving, both in the book and film. I missed that they didn't show Claire's hand actually going through the stone and Jamie pulling her back. It's easier for him to believe her when he saw that with his own eyes.
I wanted to see that too though I think it would have come off as cheesy looking. But even if things went dark and then she was thrust into Jamie's arms with him shocked that she nearly disappeared.... I want to see it but I'm okay with this. It seems odd to me he'd just believe her.

LOL Yes, cold baths and Jamie Fraser anyday!
Kaylee Winchester: Outlander-Claireroguem on April 21st, 2015 11:14 am (UTC)
Do you think Geillis truly loves Dougal?
Nope. I just think she likes power.

What did you think of Laoghaire’s court performance?
Another change from the books I didn't care for, (Book spoilers:)[Spoiler (click to open)]mostly because I find it hard to believe Jamie won't know about this by the time Jenny pushes him to marry Laoghaire, and I feel him not knowing about her involvement is very important.
Also she's been so cunning up to now I find it hard to believe she'd associate herself with the trial.

How brilliant was Ned in this episode?
Yay Ned. He was one of my faves in the book, and I just loved how they'd used him in this episode.

Did you notice as they were carrying Geillis out to the Pior that the Examiners were calling for them to stop because she is with child? Do you think that will make a difference?
I didn't catch that, but I was wondering about the baby.

What did you make of Geillis expression when Claire quoted Nathan Hale?
Since I've read the book I didn't think to much of it, but I also think that Geillis has suspected for a while.

What did you think of Geillis’s decision to confess to being a witch to save Claire?
Heroic, and maybe a little cunning.

What did you think of Jamie wounded heart at realizing he should take Claire to the Stones so she could return to Frank and her time?
Just loved everything from the moment he saves her to the end of the episode. That is such a big part of who Jamie is, how selfless he is. And if anybody doubted that he really loves her, here's the proof.

Any thoughts on Claire’s decision to stay?
It is a dilemma because of Frank, but he hasn't really been mentioned since the show returned, which I think was a way to show us that Claire was really starting to fall for Jamie. I remember reading that part just stressing out because I honestly wasn't sure. I think they did it well here too because I had a similar feeling.
Jill aka Jo: Outlander: Claire at the windowsireesanwar on April 22nd, 2015 08:51 pm (UTC)
Nope. I just think she likes power.
Huh? That moment really struck me as her loving him and not wanting to admit it. Funny how people see different things.

Another change from the books I didn't care for
...[Spoiler (click to open)]See and I thought that too but then I also thought just because Laoghaire was there doesn't mean she was part of it and if Claire doesn't go into detail... he views Laoghaire as an innocent mostly except the ill wish. Hmmm. I mean that is like 2 books out so I wonder how that will play....

-I loved Ned's role in this episode too. I'm so glad we are seeing more of him than we do in the books.

-Me too. I kept thinking? Will they burn her before the baby or do they care...[Spoiler (click to open)]looking at it from a different perspective because this show isn't completely the same as the books and I have no idea how they intend to play things in the future...

-All those questions Geillis has from day one. I kept trying to figure out how she knew so quickly that Claire was just out of time?

Just loved everything from the moment he saves her to the end of the episode. That is such a big part of who Jamie is, how selfless he is. And if anybody doubted that he really loves her, here's the proof.
It is too true. It amazes me that Jamie is so selfless. He's willing to give up the person he really seems to love the most because he cares what Claire wants. And a lot of their discussions had to have come back to him... the whole... "That is what I should want." WOW.

It is a dilemma because of Frank, but he hasn't really been mentioned since the show returned, which I think was a way to show us that Claire was really starting to fall for Jamie. I remember reading that part just stressing out because I honestly wasn't sure. I think they did it well here too because I had a similar feeling.
I remember reading that part thinking... "DON'T LEAVE JAMIE!" but she makes the right call. I still think I like the way it plays out in the book best but I loved this portion of the show.